18 killed in school shooting

[Qqmike]

GG: Carrying it in the open, IF such is allowed, can get you whacked in the head and the gun stolen. I would never recommend open carrying of any firearm in a metropolitan area, even if it is legal to do so.

Got a buddy, tough guy, he pulls up on his heavy hog in my driveway, the house shakes & rattles, and I'm sure the neighbors, rattled upon seeing him (read: tough-scary guy) feel like dialing 911. He got an open-carry license. So I ask him if he carries his pistol on his belt, in the open as he rides. He said he tried that for awhile but young, punk gang members try to surround him and taunt him about how pretty his bike and gun look, threatening to take both away from him. After running away (literally) from such scenes a few times, he came to the conclusion not to carry in the open. Kind of a funny-yet-not-so-funny story.

[Qqmike]

Thanks @ GG for #59 & #66.

[GreyGeek]

...
Isn't it true that most gun deaths are done by just a 22 pistol?

There is a website, https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/using-22-self-defense, that presented a table created from actual shootings which related the number of shots per per death per caliber. The lowly .22 required the least number of shots to be lethal. It was (is?) the preferred weapon for the Mafia executioners. And, more deaths have been attributed to it than any other caliber. The author of that article came to the conclusion that it didn't matter what caliber of weapon you used for self-defense. All that mattered was shot placement.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

I've have a 22 pistol and a 38 S&W snub nose, feeling I should bone up on my marksmanship, haven't fired for 35 or 40 years, and haven't ruled out getting a concealed carry or sending my wife for gun lessons.

Your .38 snub nose is probably only a six shot pistol. That's not enough rounds to be at your disposal, and cylinder reloads are bulky and more difficult to reload in a J frame.

If you are going to practice then do so at ranges of 5 to 15 yards, no farther. And practice with the two hand grip, and with a single hand grip, so you become proficient with either hand or two hands. At 15 yards the center of mass is not hard to hit, unless you are excited, nervous, shaking or have been injured by the perp. A so-called "Mouse gun" (.22 semi-auto like the TAURUS PT-22) can be an excellent deterrent because it is easy to shoot (no recoil anticipation because there is no hard recoil), has a very loud report (scary), and while carrying it, it is invisible in your front blue jean pocket, or the pocket of a jacket. It's not so heavy that it causes hang-down, and is so thin that it doesn't "print" as much as bulkier guns do. As I said before, hand gun bullets do not have the kinetic energy to do much more than poke holes, so practice enough that you can poke holes in the right places. Otherwise, use a rifle. It will blow holes, not poke them.

WTH is this! And I'm kind of a moderate liberal. I do sometimes carry semi-precious stones around, on the road, and so carry a gun whenever, as does everyone else I know in the biz, along with coin dealers and precious gems people. Have had friends who had to use their guns in self defense, then had to pay a lawyer to get them off on a justifiable homicide ... God Bless America? Again, WTH!?

In today's 2A environment, thanks to the Left, carrying around a firearm without a concealed carry permit can get you into deep legal trouble. Carrying it in the open, IF such is allowed, can get you whacked in the head and the gun stolen. I would never recommend open carrying of any firearm in a metropolitan area, even if it is legal to do so.

Gun laws are far from uniform. Several states permit what is called "Constitutional Carry", meaning that no permit other than the 2nd Amendment is needed to carry a firearm either openly or concealed. There were four when I acquired my CHP. Now there are around 15. The rest require a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Some states, like New Jersey, will incarcerate you for a year with fines up to $10,000 if, during a road stop for any reason what so ever, they find a single bullet in the trunk of your car. Or worse, if they find a gun, even if you are just "passing through", had no intent on stopping for anything but gas, and were duly licensed in your home state. Nebraska honors the CHP from 35 other states, the last time I checked.

Some states offer concealed carry permits but some cities within those states pass ordinances which prohibit some of what the state allows, or attaches grievous restrictions to the laws so as to make exercising them difficult. All of these "reasonable" laws and restrictions are designed to put roadblocks (infringements) in front of our 2A rights. For example, here in Lincoln one has to purchase a $5 city permit to purchase a handgun. Without that permit a gun dealer cannot sell you a hand gun. Supposedly giving the city/county a chance to check if you have a felony record (duplicate's the Federal NICS database check), it's nothing less than registering YOU as a potential handgun owner. A month later, when the permit arrives, you can go buy a hand gun.

Before you can purchase it, however, you must fill out a two page form which attests to your being a US citizen of legal age, without felony convictions, spousal abuse or court ordered non-contact. Then the gun dealer fills in his license info and phones the info into the Federal NICS. Usually within an hour the gun dealer will get a call back from the Feds approving the purchase or denying it.

Now that you have your hand gun you can take it to the shooting range and practice firing it. My recommendation is that you take shooting lessons from a qualified NRA instructor so you learn the right things in the right way. Satisfied with your marksmanship and safety skills you sign up for a conceal weapon permit class, for $150+, also given by State approved and licensed NRA instructors or LEO's. You will be taught both the Federal and State laws relating to the CHP (Concealed Holder Permit). You will be required to fire accurately from 3, 9, 15 and 21 feet, both in hand and from a concealed draw. At the end of the one week class, meeting 5 to 9, you are given a test. Make 70 or better and you pass. You get the class certificate notarized. You take it, your REAL birth certificate (not the fake thing with your foot prints that the hospital gives your parents), your driver's license, recent 5X7 photo, proof of residency, you get finger printed and pay $100. IF your application passes muster they'll send you your CHP within 35 days. Otherwise you correct the problems and pony up another $100. Rinse and repeat. Within 50 days prior to your CHP expiring you can log onto an online site and renew your CHP. It will cost you only $50.

Now that you have your Nebraska CHP you can carry concealed anywhere EXCEPT:

Sec. 15. (1)(a) A permit holder may carry a concealed handgun anywhere in Nebraska, except any: Police, sheriff, or Nebraska State Patrol station or office; detention facility, prison, or jail; courtroom or building which contains a courtroom; polling place during a bona fide election; meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or other political subdivision; meeting of the Legislature or a committee of the Legislature; financial institution; professional, semiprofessional, or collegiate athletic event; school, school grounds, school-owned vehicle, or school-sponsored activity or athletic event; place of worship; emergency room or trauma center; political rally or fundraiser; establishment having a license issued under the Nebraska Liquor Control Act that derives over one-half of its total income from the sale of alcoholic liquor; place where the possession or carrying of a firearm is prohibited by state or federal law; a place or premises where the person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or employer in control of the property has prohibited permit holders from carrying concealed handguns into or onto the place or premises; or into or onto any other place or premises where handguns are prohibited by law or rule or regulation.
(b) A financial institution may authorize its security personnel to carry concealed handguns in the financial institution while on duty so long as each member of the security personnel, as authorized, is in compliance with the Concealed Handgun Permit Act and possesses a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued pursuant to the act.
(2) If a person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or an employer in control of the property prohibits a permit holder from carrying a concealed handgun into or onto the place or premises and such place or premises are open to the public, a permit holder does not violate this section unless the person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or employer in control of the property has posted conspicuous notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited in or on the place or premises or has made a request, directly or through an authorized representative or management personnel, that the permit holder remove the concealed handgun from the place or premises. A permit holder carrying a concealed handgun in a vehicle into or onto any place or premises does not violate this section so long as the handgun is not removed from the vehicle while the vehicle is in or on the place or premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons who are permit holders from carrying concealed handguns in vehicles owned by the employer.
(3) A permit holder shall not carry a concealed handgun while he or she is consuming alcohol or while the permit holder has remaining in his or her blood, urine, or breath any previously consumed alcohol or any controlled substance as defined in section 28-401. A permit holder does not violate this subsection if the controlled substance in his or her blood, urine, or breath was lawfully obtained and was taken in therapeutically prescribed amounts.
Sec. 16. Any time the discharge of a handgun carried by a permit holder pursuant to the Concealed Handgun Permit Act results in injury to a person or damage to property, the permit holder shall make a report of such incident to the Nebraska State Patrol on a form designed and distributed by the Nebraska State Patrol. The information from the report shall be maintained as provided in section 18 of this act.

Good luck.

[Snowhog]

There are certain topics that engender STRONG feelings. Guns are one. What we must all at least agree on, is that it isn't a "I'm right and you're wrong" issue. Advocates on both sides have their reasons for believing as they do, and that doesn't necessarily make one side right and the other wrong. It also doesn't mean that either side 'must' convince the other to change their minds. Civilized minds can (and should) simply 'agree to disagree' when that is the only viable option in the debate.

[GreyGeek]

Sure! Can't you?

[sithlord48]

1. Hunting
2. Competition Shooting (Matches)
3. Proficiency Shooting (target practice)
4. Self-Defense
5. Defense of others

These are likely the 'broad categories'.

The single purpose is to send a projectile down range.

[Qqmike]

This whole gun issue is wearing, but necessary. The Divider-in-Chief is not helping, as he hasn't helped one single other damned issue, so far.

Isn't it true that most gun deaths are done by just a 22 pistol?

I've have a 22 pistol and a 38 S&W snub nose, feeling I should bone up on my marksmanship, haven't fired for 35 or 40 years, and haven't ruled out getting a concealed carry or sending my wife for gun lessons. WTH is this! And I'm kind of a moderate liberal. I do sometimes carry semi-precious stones around, on the road, and so carry a gun whenever, as does everyone else I know in the biz, along with coin dealers and precious gems people. Have had friends who had to use their guns in self defense, then had to pay a lawyer to get them off on a justifiable homicide ... God Bless America? Again, WTH!?

[Snowhog]

Can you list all the uses of this tool?

1. Hunting
2. Competition Shooting (Matches)
3. Proficiency Shooting (target practice)
4. Self-Defense
5. Defense of others

These are likely the 'broad categories'.

[sithlord48]

Firearms are tools, and they have several uses.

Can you list all the uses of this tool?

[GreyGeek]

No really single use. I’ve owned various kinds of firearms for 62 years. My primary activity with them was precision target shooting. After that it was the occasional game hunting: game birds, squirrels & rabbits, deer, elk and bear. Always for food. When I said I was from the poor side of the tracks I wasn’t virtue signaling.

While hunting I experienced two incidents of other hunters mistaking me for a deer and throwing some lead my way. When the ground 20 yards beside them exploded they realized I wasn’t a Deer. .

While teaching in a rural country school I was the highest paid teacher in the system, with a take-home pay of $700/mo. During the oil embargo in the early 70’s I could no longer afford propane so I switched to wood. Pheasant and Deer put meat on the table. I worked a side job as deputy marshal, and that was the only time I drew a weapon on an individual. He was an escaped murderer from a mental health facility in Hastings. Never had to shoot the 9mm service handgun, however, but I had no reservations about doing it if it meant I could return home to my wife and kids.

I became much more prosperous after I started my own consulting business and didn’t need to hunt for food. I switched to bows but on my first bow hunt I wished I had a camera instead, so that was my last hunt with a weapon. After that I shot 35mm instead.

Following my last 35mm hunt around 1980 my business kept me too busy to hunt and I never fired another round until four years after I retired. The trigger for the renewed interest was a letter from the Board of Pardons about a SCOTUS ruling which nullified a murder conviction of a 14 yr old who shot his stepsister in the head and then molested the body. It was my evidence that changed the charge from man slaughter to 1D murder. His lawyer got a 2D plea bargain and he was sentenced to 40 yrs in prison without parole. That was in 1987. In 1998 he got a chance for a retrial (long story). I had kept the evidence under lock and key so it was used in trial along with my testimony. This time the jury found him guilty of 1st degree murder and he was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

In 2012 the SCOTUS ruling meant that he could be set free. A total of four psychiatrists have testified that due to his early life experiences (another long story) he had a psychotic hatred of women and should never be released from custody. I refreshed my shooting skills and got a concealed carry permit.

I would not characterize the use of firearms to defend the lives of yourself and your loved ones “foolish”. What is foolish is the notion that one should sacrifice their lives at the whim of an armed thug. Equally foolish is the notion that one could “shoot the perp in the arm or leg” and thus disable them. All handguns do is poke holes, unlike high velocity bullets from rifles. The only instantaneous crippling shot is one which hits the spinal cord from the neck up, or the brain. Even a heart shot gives the perp a few seconds to shoot back. Folks hit on other locations can raise a lot trouble before they get tired and sit down. Regardless, a handgun is better than a pointed stick. One CNN “expert”, when explaining how to avoid getting shot in a workplace incident said that if you get trapped in your office and the shooter comes in your best option is to “grab a sharp pencil, call up your inner ninja, and rush the shooter”.

Firearms are tools, and they have several uses. No government on earth has been successful in keeping firearms out of the hands of people who want them. And that includes patriots who wish to defend their God given Constitutional right to defend the Rule of Law under the Constitution from those who give it lip service while working as hard as they can to shred it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sithlord48]

^ Wow a reasonable point devoid of any politics ^
The only thing I would say that a gun is a tool, a single use tool like a Guillotine.

[jglen490]

Well, first of all the loss of life in a group like this is cause for mourning and reflection. Reflection on the lives that could have been and what they could have meant to us all. Second, these kids were killed by a young man - a peer of theirs who has undergone tremendous emotional pressure for his losses and his inability to have support and care. Those two things are the most important facts that have to be addressed.

Next, a gun is not a tool. A gun is a machine intended place a projectile in a specific, targeted location at a distance from where the machine is initiated. A gun is not a hammer, it is not a screwdriver, it is not a tool. A tool can be used, or it can be abused. When a tool is used for its intended purpose, it is effective and efficient at what it is intended for use. When it is used for something other than what it was intended the results are less than beautiful. The difference between proper use and abusive use is made obvious by education or training, and someone who cares enough to provide that training.

A gun's sole purpose is to take a life, whether an animal while hunting, or another human being in an act of war. Target practice against an inanimate object can be a replacement activity, but that activity is again solely to become more proficient at placing the projectile in an exact location. Hunting is generally, a restricted activity, and taking a human life must always be well thought out as an acceptable event. These gun usage situations can only be made rational by understanding through education or training.

I agree with some of the statements above about the lack of training and understanding what a gun does, but some misplaced nostalgia about what went on long ago, does not solve the problem. Lamenting about city living versus country living is equally useless. We live in a time when we don't know our neighbors - by choice. We live in a time when social graces have disappeared and have been replaced by socializing at a distance, and face-to-face means staring into a camera and talking into a microphone. And we accept that as a good thing.

When we talk about important things like what it means to control someone's actions, the conversation goes away and we all dive into the pool of our own misunderstanding - of the next guy, of the fact that we all have worthwhile ideas, and we hide behind our scorn of thoughts that are different from out own "perfect" ideas. That becomes uncomfortable close to paranoia, an irrational fear of "other". Then we go further and put up shields of idealism, all too often an idealism concocted by someone with a louder voice or more money. We have become a nation of selfish, closed minded, individualistic naysayers. Much worse than the nattering nabobs of negativity, pronounced upon the nation by the pompous ass of a Vice President in the past century. We buy into an understanding of the U.S. Constitution that incessantly cherry picks one phrase, one amendment, one concept rather than the marvelous framework of law that it is in its totality.

Because it is easy.

Life is complicated, it is hard, is takes energy, and it takes respect that is given and not expected. And the only way to do that is to start with a conversation that does not assume that the "I" in that conversation has the only good ideas. Care about each other, notice when things don't look right not to impose your own will but to understand what is happening.

I own guns, they rarely see the light of day, but I am pretty good at handling and using them. I have never been, nor will I ever be a member of a certain gun related organization. Their single minded, narrow view of what it takes to make our system of law, and our society, great is based on a paranoid fear of the loss of one misunderstood part of that framework of law and society. They have made millions from us. But instead of turning those millions towards the good all of us by educating and training the nation, they have decided to be just another "Beltway Bandit" and spend their millions on buying Congressional seats. They are useless to us, the very ones who have given them their millions. And they are impediment to making useful decisions about how to handle the misunderstanding and misuse of guns and the foolish taking of lives with guns.

[GreyGeek]

In moments of lucidity Marxist state truths:
“Political power flows out of the barrel of a gun”. - Mao
“It doesn’t matter who votes. What matters is who counts the votes” - Lenin

EverytownUSA inflated their “school shootings” statistic by including armed robberies that occurred in school parking lots after hours, or near schools.
Considering that thousands more are killed by other means (opioids - 42,000) other than firearms, with little to no concern by the Left, their target is obvious.

[ianp5a]

We DO get that there is a problem. There is disagreement with solutions.

It's good that you get it. But some were trying to prove otherwise.

[TWPonKubuntu]

And meanwhile, the bloodbath continues. With over 1000 people in the US shot dead 'since' the Florida shooting. But maybe that's acceptable. And those people not important.

This is what the Main Stream Media (MSM) is pushing. Not "caring for our fellow man". Do note that their emphasis (the government and MSM) is on banning guns. Look for power, control and money motives.

The guns are not the problem, as Snowhog expressed above.

Nor is legislation the solution.

And, with respect, neither is appealing to our moral sense of outrage (or implied lack of outrage) at the carnage.

We get that. Solutions have been proposed, and rejected, because they don't fit the media/government agenda.

Look at how the idea of arming teachers in classroom is being spun by the media.

Look at the hopeful signs of changes in concealed and open carry laws. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

We DO get that there is a problem. There is disagreement with solutions.