18 killed in school shooting

[Snowhog]

The entire focus is on (by the media and the government) the tool used by the assailant, and not the assailant who used the tool. As I have said; will continue to say; will continue to emphasize, is that the tool is not, never has been, the problem here. It's the weilder of the tool.

The United States is different than any other Country in the world. Our beginnings are different. Our culture is differnt. Our Constitution is very different. And, the express freedoms our Founders codified, thus guarantying to us in our Constitution and Bill of Rights, are very different from nearly every other Country on the face of planet Earth.

This too I've said, and say it again here: There is only one 'legal way' to affect 'gun control' here in the United States, and that's to pass an Amendment to the Constitution. Period. But the reason that this isn't heard, stated, or addressed by the media or government, is it's a very hard thing to do, and that too, was by design by our Founders. They (our Founders) were not stupid men. What they did; what they created (and I'm not referring just to the United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights) was unique in the world, and has not, as far as I know, ever been duplicated since.

We (the "U.S.") have a problem. Even as a Patron Life Member of the National Rifle Association, I recognize this, and so do the millions of N.R.A. Members. But we recognize that the problem is not the guns being demonized by the media and the government (small 'G' here, as it's at all levels of government); it's people misusing guns, and truth be told, if there were no guns, then without any other changes having been made (addressing mental health issues, having instutions and all States fully compliant with reporting to the federal NICS database, ...) these same people would find other means to their ends. If you think otherwise, you are living in a utopian world, seen through rose colored glasses.

[ianp5a]

And meanwhile, the bloodbath continues. With over 1000 people in the US shot dead 'since' the Florida shooting. But maybe that's acceptable. And those people not important.

[GreyGeek]

That IS WHY: Lack of moral training from birth. From Home (parents, grandparents), from School ("teachers"), and from Church (everyone in the congregation).

Without that training, children are subject to bad examples and influence from all of the following: Peers, Media, Video Games, Television (as separate form media).

If you are asking "What were they thinking?" when they did these horrible acts... I cannot answer that. I could speculate, but could not expect to be accurate. I don't know.

What can be done? I'm glad you ask. Train and Arm teachers in the schools, train and arm parents at home, Hire armed guards at schools and churches. Absolutely outlaw "gun free zones", everywhere.

Do I expect this to happen? Perhaps, in some areas of the country (countries). When will this happen? I don't know.

Remember when Bill Clinton was being "serviced" by a White House intern and when Americans objected they were told in no uncertain terms that their morality had no place in the political sphere. Now, 20 years later, who's forcing their morality on the rest of us?

Anyway, your point about training and morality instruction in the home is well made. I was born on the wrong side of the tracks and came from a broken home. Despite that, when I was 15 or 16 I took a bus to down town Dever, walked into the Dave Cook Sporting Goods store and put $75 on the counter for two M1-Garands. No ID necessary, no questions asked. I carried those two rifles, still in cosmoline & wrappers, but obvious as to what they were, home on the bus with me. Never shot at anything except Deer with them. Wish my step brother hadn't sold them while I was away at college. They are @ worth $1500-2000 today. The whole gun control campaign began when Charles Whitman, whose autopsy showed he had a brain tumor, shot a bunch of people from the Univ. of Texas Clock Tower in 1966. No move was made to regulate hunting knives he used to kill his wife and mother before his rampage. Since then nearly all of the mass shootings have been done by people with severe mental issues.

[GreyGeek]

He was referring to Germany, not the U.S.

Understood, but the implication was that the NRA in the US is evil.

BTW, I am not a member of the NRA but after all the attacks against it I may join.

[vinnywright]

train and arm parents at home,

fully armed hear ,,,,,,and know how to use them .

but would never think of just going out and shooting up a crowd no matter how mad I was .

VINNY

[TWPonKubuntu]

That IS WHY: Lack of moral training from birth. From Home (parents, grandparents), from School ("teachers"), and from Church (everyone in the congregation).

Without that training, children are subject to bad examples and influence from all of the following: Peers, Media, Video Games, Television (as separate form media).

If you are asking "What were they thinking?" when they did these horrible acts... I cannot answer that. I could speculate, but could not expect to be accurate. I don't know.

What can be done? I'm glad you ask. Train and Arm teachers in the schools, train and arm parents at home, Hire armed guards at schools and churches. Absolutely outlaw "gun free zones", everywhere.

Do I expect this to happen? Perhaps, in some areas of the country (countries). When will this happen? I don't know.

[vinnywright]

Good question. I would point at Home, School and Church as points of failure in teaching morals to children.

the guns one could argue are a convenient tool to the end ,,,but if they were not around then soda bottles full of gas would suffice and be even more horrific.

the point is WHY WHY dose jony whosit WANT to do this and WHY dose his mind not give him some pause.

VINNY

[TWPonKubuntu]

...
why dose jony whosit want to go in his own school (or anywhere else)and kill indiscriminate others ,,,and why dose he not seem to have the moral checks in his conscience to make him NOT want to hurt others he may not even know that well .

VINNY

Good question. I would point at Home, School and Church as points of failure in teaching morals to children.

[vinnywright]

Personally I think their is a larger underlying problem at play hear than just to many guns laying around ,,,lets face it if someone truly wants to hurt/kill a bunch of people their are other ways than a gun and if their are no guns then the one that wants to do the hurting/killing will find a way .

the question (in my mind) is WHY is their an increasing trend it seams to WANT to do this .

this is the thing ,,,,,their seems to be an increasing number of people that actually want to hurt others to the point that they will actually do it ,,,this is the problem and this is what needs all the attention.

why dose jony whosit want to go in his own school (or anywhere else)and kill indiscriminate others ,,,and why dose he not seem to have the moral checks in his conscience to make him NOT want to hurt others he may not even know that well .

VINNY

[TWPonKubuntu]

... But when a campaign to undermine the valid trust that has been built up over many years, along with organised social media misinformation is used to dampen and muddy public opposition to government or NSA activities, people need to find trustworthy information from somewhere.
...

This discussion has been productive, thank you all.

With respect to the degree of trust in media, I too see the decline. A question becomes, who is behind the media behavior which is making them untrustworthy? We've always had "fringe" media which was frequently seen as a joke, not to be believed, but now the "main" stream media is getting the derision. I must say, In My Opinion, that they are deserving of the derision, based on what they are pushing at the public. The phrase "fake news" is accurate.

So who is behind this trend? I see so much politics, from all "sides" and parties, that it takes a lot of time and effort to filter and analyze what might be truth from what might be "fake" (read that as "propaganda" for those who know history).

When trust is weak, we can expect that many factions will arise (I'm RIGHT. No, I'm RIGHT. Don't Believe THEIR Lies!)... Sound familiar? I see it everyday in the news feeds (online). I don't follow or participate in social media (SM), so my view is only what is reflected from SM posts in other media, but it sounds (second hand opinion) like chaos and disorganized name calling is the rule of the day. SM is not a trustworthy news source. It (IMO) is the technological soap box for anyone who wants a following...

As Showhog said, above:

...
And that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Trust, but verify. It takes some effort, but each person should validate as true or false anything told to them by the media or the government.

ian5pa, you are correct in this statement:

...
people need to find trustworthy information from somewhere.

The only trustworthy barometer for trust lies between the ears of each individual. I see so few sources of truth that I do, sometimes, feel a sense of hopelessness and distrust toward almost all media...

It's a jungle out there...

[TWP steps off the soapbox]

[ianp5a]

“The result is now that many in the US distrust the media regardless of the validity of the content.”

And that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Trust, but verify. It takes some effort, but each person should validate as true or false anything told to them by the media or the government.

Which is fine. But when a campaign to undermine the valid trust that has been built up over many years, along with organised social media misinformation is used to dampen and muddy public opposition to government or NSA activities, people need to find trustworthy information from somewhere.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

[Bings]

Do beware of relying on what the main stream media (MSM) is reporting.

As I am not in the country, I don't really have that much exposure to US main stream media. British MSM is pretty much universally in support of gun control but then that is in line with British opinion on the whole. Gun control here was introduced here and the gradual disarming of UK populace in the twentieth century was in the main as a response to the threat of communism. It was more a valid strategy then. Today, the military of most countries have technology that can vastly overpower even the largest of civilian revolt. The lucky ones of us have well functioning democracies, that includes the US. The ability of a people to enact a change of leaders peacefully every so often is more useful than any weapon and said powerful miltaries in the main defend that.

I don't think comparing countries legislation is really helpful to the debate. The question is will doing X achieve Y for the country in particular, not has it worked or not in another country. Looking at the statistics, it seems that even if the US adopted there would still be a much higher level of murders. There needs to be more understanding of why people in the US are so much more murderous than those in other rich western countries. Access to guns can not alone explain why you're nearly 3 times more likely to be murdered in the US than Canada.

At the end of the day, the US is a democracy and if the majority of people want access to guns then this will need to be worked around regardless of subjective opinion.

[Snowhog]

“The result is now that many in the US distrust the media regardless of the validity of the content.”

And that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Trust, but verify. It takes some effort, but each person should validate as true or false anything told to them by the media or the government.

[ianp5a]

ianp5a
I find it curious that your perspective on the situation doesn't appear to include the problems in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, to name a few.

The Main Stream Media is not an strictly American phenomena. Not that I would want to claim any ownership, but that the media and government, world wide, is engaged in these practices. Other countries may call it by another name, but it is dis-information and has been used by governments and other organizations since civilization arose. Different generations, different buzzwords to refer to the same process.

Optimism is a good thing, so long as it doesn't become myopia or a willingness to sacrifice individual freedom for safety.

Let's watch and see how this turns out...

I'm looking at the problem in the US, where some there seem to think it's not a huge problem. Who perhaps want to distract people, or compare the US with failing or troubled countries. And not understanding that the US gun problem is very unusual among countries of similar wealth and standing.

We also have a diversified range of media from different European countries. You soon know if one is dumbing down the news too much when you watch coverage from another country. The news organisations know that.
In the US, Trump has a deliberate campaign to discredit the media, to distract from anything unpopular that he does. It's one of his strategies. The result is now that many in the US distrust the media regardless of the validity of the content.

[Snowhog]

He was referring to Germany, not the U.S.