18 killed in school shooting

[whatthefunk]

I believe that "Those who beat their guns into plowshares will plow for those who have guns".

I think history supports my belief.

Not really. No other modern industrialized nation has the lenient gun laws America has and they are not enslaved.

And some folks think it would be a good thing for Americans to give up their 2nd Amendment rights? Are they crazy? IF it is about saving lives then lets outlaw personal automobiles, which account for more lives than those as a result of firearms, and force everyone to use buses, trains, planes or bikes. Opps! They are not 100% safe either. Last year 11,000 homicides were due to firearms, out of 15,000 total homicides. 42,826 people committed suicide. Of the 135,000 who die every year in the USA, about 34,000 are killed in car accidents. Where is the outrage? It's because people are willing to put up with that carnage because of their own convenience.

Cars are highly regulated. You have to be licensed to drive one. If you violate the law too many times, you loose your license. The cars themselves must pass federal safety standards. Car design is constantly being improved so that accidents are less likely to happen and less deadly when they do. Traffic systems are also constantly evolving to improve traffic flow and reduce the number of accidents. There is outrage and there is change.

Firearms are tools. Nothing more. They are no more dangerous in the hands of a responsible person than a hammer. And, a hammer in the hands of an irresponsible person can be just has dangerous as a firearm. Yes, it's a matter of degree, and yes, a firearm makes it easier to inflict injury or death to another than does a hammer, but my point remains: Any tool used responsibly isn't dangerous. Any tool used irresponsibly is dangerous. The only difference is the person using the tool.

Rocket launchers are also tools. So are tanks, F-16s, M-60s, nuclear bombs and anthrax. Why not make them legal? And really, if the civilian population is going to have a chance against the US military, they will need a lot more than pistols and semi-automatic assault rifles. Where do we draw the line? Why not just make everything legal? Heroin alone is simply a thing, not dangerous at all. Only in the hands of an irresponsible person does it become dangerous.

In the last eight years drug overdose deaths have climbed to 16,350. Heroin overdose deaths have tripled. The Feds are NOT able to stop the flow of illegal drugs into the country so how do they plan to stop the flow of illegal weapons?

This is sadly true. Even if guns were outlawed tomorrow, the millions of guns that are currently in the US would not simply disappear.

[GreyGeek]

And CBS News is LYING about purchasing guns in Florida doesn't help ...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida...inkId=48278188

It is NOT easier to buy a gun than Sudafed in Florida, or any other state.

Anyone who has purchased a long gun or hand gun knows the drill. In many states you have to have a local permit (as in Lincoln) to buy a hand gun. That get's you in the door of the gun store and allows you to look around. If you see a firearm you like then you have to present your Driver's License, your SS# and fill out a two page form and sign it. It includes an oath which, if you've lied, WILL lead to fines and imprisonment. Then, the gun store employee PHONES NICS and submits your form. Federal employees at NICS check their database for your SS# and name. It contains any records you might have of citizenship, felonies, spousal abuse or injunctions against you. IF your record is clean they phone back and tell the store employee it is OK for you to purchase the weapon. IF not, you can't.

Now, how many of you had to pass an NCIS check before you purchased Sudafed? None of you.

If I want to carry concealed in most states I have to take that class followed by a test of my knowledge of state and federal gun laws, and a shooting test to prove I can safely handle firearms. If I travel and want to carry concealed in the states I travel through or to, I have to check to make sure that those states allow reciprocity, or that I have taken classes for and have received a CCP for each state, even IF I only drive through it and do not stop. If, for example, I drive through New jersey and get stopped at a VIPR stop & search point, and they find even a single bullet in the trunk of my car, to say nothing of my handgun locked in a gun safe, I will be spending a year in jail and be fined thousands. And that's in a country with the 2nd Amendment. So, the oath of office which all politicians take, and most lie about, includes a promise to "uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic, and that they take that OBLIGATION willingly and without mental reservations or purpose of evasion". Yet, they continue to pass "reasonable" laws to infringe that which shall NOT be infringed (that's the lying part).

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The SCOTUS ruling in Heller v Disctrict of Columbia:

Held:
The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

So, that's settled law.

How many of you who have purchased Sudafed had to present a notarized document attesting to the fact that you took classes on the use and disposal of Sudafed? Never mind, I'll answer for you - NONE.

CBS lied.

[Snowhog]

And, the very Government who has been trying HARD to curtail the protection that the 2nd Amendment guarantees us, is the Government our Founders feared, and for which the 2nd Amendment was framed and enacted. As GreyGeek states, the 2nd Amendment "It is about protecting one's freedom when the government they live under becomes tyrannical."

I've seen/read statements/arguments along the lines of "But how can a handgun or rifle protect you from a tank?" The sentiment there is, the Government has so much more firepower at it's disposal, how can the average American expect to protect themselves anyway? Well, with that kind of 'reasoning', let's all just lay down and get run over!

The problem in the U.S. isn't guns in the hands of responsible citizens; it never has been. Millions of people travel by plane every year. It's the safest means of travel based on passengers per mile by a LONG shot. Yet, when a passenger plane crashes; it does happen; the death toll can be huge. It makes headline news because it's sensational. But we don't advocate for the ban on air travel; that would be ridiculous!

The vast majority of firearms owned in the U.S. are in the hands of responsible citizens. Those that commit violent acts with firearms account for a significantly small fraction of the population, but, their actions make headlines because those acts are 'sensational', and the media loves sensational stories because it sells!

Firearms are tools. Nothing more. They are no more dangerous in the hands of a responsible person than a hammer. And, a hammer in the hands of an irresponsible person can be just has dangerous as a firearm. Yes, it's a matter of degree, and yes, a firearm makes it easier to inflict injury or death to another than does a hammer, but my point remains: Any tool used responsibly isn't dangerous. Any tool used irresponsibly is dangerous. The only difference is the person using the tool.

[GreyGeek]

I had a semi-auto handgun setting in a shoebox on the top shelf of my library for over 25 years and not once did it jump down, run outside and start randomly shooting at people.

The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting, or even self protection, which are side benefits. It is about protecting one's freedom when the government they live under becomes tyrannical. That's why despots go for the guns first. It's also why people recently off their SSRI's bypass places where concealed carry is allowed and target those places that are posted. 20 of the last 21 shootings were by people who were on or had recently come off SSRI's. While they may be crazy they aren't stupid. They know that if they start shooting up a place that allows concealed carry they will probably get shot within seconds of firing their first shot. Rather than risk that they go to schools, theaters, entertainment venues and other posted places. Neil deGrass Tyson mockingly stated that "prayers can't stop bullets". Neither can signs stating "No Guns".

Tyranny? How close do you want to get before you say "enough is enough"? The last two administrations were the most corrupt in US history, IMO.

Allow me to list JUST A FEW of the acts and actions that raise concerns to the highest level:

Obama’s Department of Homeland Security specifically warned that Americans who are “dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration” are potential terrorists, as are libertarian-minded voters who “favor of state or local authority” over centralized power. These “rightwing extremists” (who hold political beliefs shared by a majority of Americans) are deemed a greater threat to the nation than actual revolutionaries or jihadists.

When Obama purposely disables his election campaign website's credit card verification system so that foreign donors can contribute with no limit and no proof of identity.

Does weaponizing the IRS against your political beliefs cross the line?

Is converting the EPA website into a Marxist propaganda website enough?

Is passing a health care bill that no one read before passing it, and everyone lied about what is in it ("if you want your doctor you can keep your doctor"), and it forces you to purchase health insurance from selected private companies, all of them run by members of the political party that pushed the bill enough?

Billions of taxpayer dollars gambled on “green” companies like Solyndra, NextEra, Ener1, Solar Trust and many others — all of which went bankrupt. Is that enough?

Intentional refusing to enforce federal immigration laws and creating "laws" using Executive Orders, "laws" that allow anyone, unverified, into the country and immediately giving them social services, drivers licenses, and encouraging them to vote. Is that enough?

When states voted to enforce the federal immigration laws which the federal government refused to enforced, Obama sued to stop them.

Operation Fast & Furious — a government-sponsored illegal gun-running scheme designed to purposely go awry so as to induce public outcry for gun control.

Militarily intervened in Libya in 2011 without the Congressional approval required by the War Powers Act — technically an impeachable offense.

Before he entered politics, Obama worked as a lawyer suing banks in landmark cases, forcing them to give home loans to unqualified minority borrowers — a practice now understood as one of the primary initial causes of the eventual housing bubble and market collapse.

Greatly expanding the number of unaccountable “czars,” which essentially amounts to unilaterally adding new federal departments with no congressional oversight — leading to a true “bureaucracy” in the original sense (rule by unelected bureaucrats).

Doling out $800 billion in stimulus cash for “shovel-ready” jobs that didn’t exist — the money just evaporated with no measurable economic benefit.

Alienating and isolating Israel, our strongest ally in the Middle East.

Apologizing to Islamists and terrorists for offending them.

Proposed in 2008 to intentionally bankrupt the coal industry — and lied to voters and workers in coal-producing regions about his true intent. West Virginia was sent back to the 1930s.

Violated the U.S. Constitution by authorizing assassinations and drone strikes to kill American citizens abroad — without due process.

Was caught on a “hot mike” promising the President of Russia that he would cave in to their demands for a weaker missile shield — after he was re-elected and no longer had to keep up the pretense that he sought to defend America.

Appointed Van Jones, a former avowed communist who supported a “9/11 Truth” petition, to be “Green Jobs Czar.”

Appointed Anita Dunn, who said Chairman Mao was her “favorite philosopher,” to be White House Communications Director.

Appointed John Holdren, who previously entertained the notion of forced mass sterilzation to stop overpopulation, to be Science Czar.

Appointed Steven Chu, who openly advocated an artificial increase in gasoline prices to $10/gallon (and similar increases in other energy prices) to be Secretary of Energy.

Appointed Kevin Jennings, who led a group that promoted X-rated “sex-positive” textbooks for 13-year-olds, instructed teenagers at a conference how to perform “fisting” (anal penetration by fists), who refused to report instances of statutory rape, and who expressed admiration for a member of NAMBLA, to be America’s “Safe School’s Czar.”

Can you name ANY economic or political act that doesn't require ID? Driver's license, drinking beer, buying anything on credit. VOTER ID? When states tried to stop election fraud with voter ID laws, Obama sued to prevent them from doing so.

Instructed Attorney General Eric Holder to stonewall any investigation into the voter intimidation case against the New Black Panthers.

Rather than ending the influence of lobbyists in Washington, their influence has only increased.

Aided and abetted the “Arab Spring” which deposed existing secular governments across North Africa, leading to a regional power vacuum which was filled by Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, and other hardline Islamists.

Ordered NASA to make one of its top priorities not space exploration or scientific research but “Muslim outreach.”

Set up a special email account, “Flag@Whitehouse.gov,” to which Americans were supposed to inform the government of anyone they heard spreading “disinformation” about Obama’s health care overhaul. (This was the first of three different “spy on your friends and neighbors” programs.)

“Attack Watch” was Obama’s second Big Brother attempt, a Web site on which you would report “attacks” on Obama’s proposals and ideology; it was quickly shut down due to outrage and mockery.

The “Truth Team” program which encouraged citizens to report to the government any friends or relatives they hear repeating “lies” about Obama. The Truth Team site still exists.

In June of 2011, he anointed his own underage daughters as “senior staff members” so that their vacation to Africa would be paid for with taxpayer money.

When Inspector General Gerald Walpin discovered during a 2009 investigation that one of Obama’s political allies (the mayor of Sacramento) was misusing government funds for personal gain, Obama unceremoniously fired Walpin — even though rooting out fraud was the job description of the Inspector General.

More than once Obama made so-called “recess appointments” when the Senate was not actually in recess, which directly violates Constitutional rules about how appointments must be made; in each case it was his way of getting his political allies into certain key positions without them being vetted or approved by the Senate, as required.

In June of 2009, Obama’s Solicitor General (and now Supreme Court Justice) Elena Kagan filed a legal brief to prevent the families of 9/11 victims from appealing their lawsuits against the Saudi royal family for financing the 9/11 attacks.

Disrespecting the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution? Intentionally misquoting the Declaration of Independence in speeches, often leaving out the words “by their Creator” in the famous passage “…are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,” which Obama instead has recited as “…are endowed with certain unalienable rights.” Compelled Catholic and other religious organizations to provide health plans with free contraception, even though such requirements violate their rights of religious freedom and conscience.

The Justice Department is building a horrible record of hiding exculpatory evidence in cases they are prosecuting.

Federal agents (but certainly not on their own volition) are provoking armed confrontations with citizens. They can even bush whack a rancher, LaVoy Finicum, with whom they have been quarreling about land rights but can't seem to find any excuse to stop "rainbow family" from camping on the same "delicate ecosystem". Funny how that works.

The TSA hasn't stopped a single terrorist yet the DHS has expanded their actions beyond the "Constitution Free Zone" into the surrounding country, using VIPR squads. The Constitution prohibits random and arbitrary stops and searches, but this hasn't stopped the VIPR teams. A 100 mile wide "Constitution Free Zone" has been established around our borders and Internation airports. Roughly 2/3rds of Americans cannot enjoy full constitutional protections.

And some folks think it would be a good thing for Americans to give up their 2nd Amendment rights? Are they crazy? IF it is about saving lives then lets outlaw personal automobiles, which account for more lives than those as a result of firearms, and force everyone to use buses, trains, planes or bikes. Opps! They are not 100% safe either. Last year 11,000 homicides were due to firearms, out of 15,000 total homicides. 42,826 people committed suicide. Of the 135,000 who die every year in the USA, about 34,000 are killed in car accidents. Where is the outrage? It's because people are willing to put up with that carnage because of their own convenience.

In the last eight years drug overdose deaths have climbed to 16,350. Heroin overdose deaths have tripled. The Feds are NOT able to stop the flow of illegal drugs into the country so how do they plan to stop the flow of illegal weapons? It will take more than crushing the 2nd Amendment which, I believe, is the goal of many on the Left who call the Consitution "that little book" derisiviely.

[ianp5a]

Schools in Germany don't have lock down drills, and do not fear such shootings. The number of deaths and injuries is tiny compared to the US. Where more and more people are getting fed up with the constant slaughter.

It's odd that some people don't want to do anything about it. Like 34, 000 gun deaths/year or an average of 1 school shooting/week somehow acceptable. And will fight to keep the death toll high.

I'm glad my kid doesn't need to hide in school cupboards.

[TWPonKubuntu]

WhatTheFunk:

Statistics being the third category of lies...

I believe that "Those who beat their guns into plowshares will plow for those who have guns".

I think history supports my belief.

[whatthefunk]

Woodsmoke, woodsmoke, woodsmoke.

Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...res_in_Germany
Four gun related massacres since 2000.
49 Dead

USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego..._United_States
21 gun related mass shootings since last year
I don't want to count all the dead, but its clearly over 100

Yeah, gun laws sure seem to be having no effect in Germany...

[woodsmoke]

So sad...

Throughout the night and into Saturday, shocked and grieving residents laid flowers and candles outside the school where a shooting rampage left 18 dead.

The gunman, dressed all in black and armed with a handgun and a pump-action gun, searched corridors, rooms and toilets inside the school, ...gunning people down, the police chief told a news conference.

The bodies were scattered in hallways, classrooms and bathrooms. The dead police officer was shot earlier before the school was stormed, police told CNN.

Weeping students fled the school, and anxious parents gathered outside.

"I heard shooting and thought it was a joke," Melanie Steinbrueck, 13, told The Associated Press. "But then I saw a teacher dead in the hallway in front of Room 209 and a gunman in black carrying a weapon."

Juliane Blank, 13, added: "The guy was dressed all in black -- gloves, cap, everything was black.

"He must have opened the door without being heard and forced his way into the classroom. We ran out into the hallways. We just wanted to get out."

WE MUST ENACT MORE GUN LAWS TO STOP THIS CARNAGE in the UNITED STATES!!!

ohh...oops...

sorry...the above is from GERMANY...2002...a country which is ACKNOWLEDGED as having some of the most RESTRICTIVE GUN LAWS...

hmmm

CNN REPORT

Germany has some of teh world's restrictive gun laws

Soooo...I'm not too bright but...if in a country which has MASSIVELY more restrictive gun laws than the U.S. is it possible that maybe it isn't "the gun" but "the crazy"? That's at fault?

According to the article it is...the ILLEGAL weapons that are to blame...ok,...

So...yeah it isn't the crazy guy it is the ILLEGAL gun...ok...

But if it is the ILLEGAL gun...then... what about all those LAWS...? hmmm

woodhmmmsmoke