The madness of idiocy

[Feathers McGraw]

I think the core of the issue is summed up by Debian's self-definition as a "Do-ocracy". If you want something done you have to do something about it yourself, or you just end up with everyone saying "someone else should really fix that, it's not my job"... could be bug reports, could be programming, could be writing documentation for things you've found difficult because you can bet someone else will have the same questions.

People are generally kind and they will generally help you (especially here, which is why this is such a positive forum), but this is more like university than school: nobody owes you their time and you have to be willing to learn too.

The great thing about this whole process is that generally the investment in other people is worth it, because it gives them the skills they need to give something back. Nobody can know everything, but between us I think we have most things covered here.

[xennex81]

Well, my context is kinda that even speaking on this forum improves my .... euhm. Health situation. So much. I am locked up inside some psychiatric prison. There is a huge builtup of negative emotions because there is no way to express yourself here in the context of not being willing to hurt a few people here just to escape to a regular prison.... Within the context of 'being limited by walls' in terms of not speaking your mind and having your voice heard every single moment what results is a condition in which normal self-expression is made impossible and I feel and find my awareness getting shut off because the pain on my neck and head is too much.

There is also a funny guy here who loves the internet link so much (Wifi generally doesn't work because of a configuration issue in the access gateway) that he puts the wire into a different wall socket that has no link, just so he can stay on the internet for longer periods talking to his chick. It took me half an hour to learn how to use/find ethtool ;-), so I could in fact discover that:

"Link detected: no" .

Before realizing that there was actually a good reason I could not get any DHCP responses . Before I had already installed several tools such as dhcp-probe, and dhcp-discover, but to no avail, dhclient gave no response, manual ip configuration did nothing. Duh. The guy had sabotaged the link.

He is standing in the back now being bored because I am sitting at this desk with the cable he wants/needs. Complaining about the internet now (wifi).

Just being able to speak here about matters that interest me is a 100% difference in how I feel at this point. But to get back to the issue at hand.

Like I am saying, it is not the same. I spend millions of hours learning stuff. I am just in a context that often I have no time to learn stuff that prove to be a waste of time. Quite simply put, it is. Learning how to use a freaking library in software development because you really want to do a certain thing with it, is one thing. But learning how to... I don't know. We are talking about a desktop environment here. Please hear me: the whole idea of that thing is for it to be user friendly. Otherwise there is no point. We were talking about.. what. ? Oh, yes,. plasma-desktop taking up 100% cpu and becoming extremely unresponsive.

Even if it mattered to me that much, it is pretty clear I think that if I am in dire straights in my own life, or whatever, it doesn't have to be anything special. But anyone .. if you are in a position... if I am in a position.... where there is simply no time for a certain thing. Or just a little. There is a bit of time for it. Enough perhaps to file a bug report. But not really to start digging into support threads just in case 2 miles down the road there is a solution that I don't have to test a thousand times and find out if it changes the problem I have in this moment and in the meantime it is till important to have your voice be heard because it must be known that it is really unacceptable for any system, certainly a desktop, to have regular 'lockups' and I would believe at least at this point in my mind and my experience that such facts would be of interest to the people doing the maintaining or developing. Even.

Telling me to solve it myself really flies in the face of what ordinarily happens: some update is pushed, and you can download it. If I have a default setup with a default chipset on a default laptop.... you know. And I am not saying any specific person owes me any time. I am just saying that if there are people who are already invested in making this work, or have an interest in helping people, or in being responsible for a certain user experience.

Then obviously these people would want to know or hear about the issues or results with the responsibilities they have taken up or chosen themselves out of good reasons.

But if you go and say that "complaints" that do not immediately "solve" things are unwelcomed, then this ignores the fact that there are *already* people who have chosen themselves to have a *stake* in these experiences. Meaning, I or any person, in that case, or instance, or moment, am not asking anyone to do anything for me that the person (who would want or need to hear it) had not chosen to be responsible for in any case, or at least would profess and interest, or have an interest, or should be having an interest at least, in learning about these experiences.

I think though that you (and everyone) should dump the idea of "contributing" as it is constructed these days. "Giving back". Just my personal insultful opinion ;-). But personally I do believe in what you (Feathers) just said here. Investing in helping other people solve their problems acquires for you the skills you need to do your own.

Because the problems of other people that interest you are often small pieces of the puzzle you are completing yourself, and they don't take as long as the things you need or want to be doing for your own ;-) . I so agree, happily.

But you do it for your self, for your own purposes and interests. And if then you discover in another person a need that fulfills your own desire, namely to learn and study and become more skills, for example, you take up a task and take responsibility for solving that task for that person. It is what I do all the time myself, on various other forums, when at least I am able to spend time on it..... :-/.

I am very fond of searching a support forum (such as Wordpress, until they hid my account from other users ) for problems that spark my mind and I go about and solve them for someone. And when I am content about the solution and the other person is content, I can move on to something else again. I guess, just my way of explaining or relating my sentiment in this...

I don't want to brag or anything, I am not doing all that much. Certainly not these days... I just spend time on survival in this.... horror.

But my point I guess is that ideally just venting should never be a problem to anyone. There is always some value in it because it speaks of an experience which means there is information in it. Not only information, also perception. As a designer you are interested or would be interested normally in seeing the perceptions of users because it is a requirement to build a product that will be attractive to (more) people, if that is what you want.

You can say that "it is your problem, you need to contribute" but that belies the fact that it is also an interest of every designer to make something that people will want to use. Personally I would want to make stuff that I can take a real responsibility for from start to end, more or less.

Now, not many go that far but there are a few softwares that go all the way, I guess, most notably e.g. the TrueCrypt for Windows software. And the benefit is that the more you invest in the early stages of development, and hence, the product itself and its quality, the less support requests you need to handle.

Now I must also say that Debian itself is a bit of a different beast. Try to install Gnome on it and see how extremely bare-bones it is. I do not expect to get anything for 'free' from Debian. It is not a GUI. It is not designed as a desktop thing distribution thing. But KDE/Kubuntu is. So it has different expectations from users also.

And these expectations (or requirements, demands, wishes, beliefs, ... ?) on users and on developers alike can merge and become as one. But we first have to agree that speaking your mind is okay. And that expressing these sentiments and frustrations is also okay.

And calling everything that doesn't fit the model of constructiveness useless .. sorry I have to talk to a girl here before the shop closes and I will continue later I guess.

[claydoh]

Moving this to the cafe

[xennex81]

;-).

I'm just saying that constructiveness does not suddenly stop when you are making your reply to these complaints that may occasionally or often arise on forums like this. And I agree that this is a friendly forum but that doesn't mean the opinions are suddenly different. I mean that an upholding of the idea that "constructiveness is required of everyone" is not in itself a constructive thing ;-). And the requirement just shuts off a lot of things that are actually of great value.

And in this sense communication is blocked. What happens is that you are refusing certain expressions because they don't live up to your standards. But what does? Are you clear on that? And are these things constructive in the highest sense?

[xennex81]

Okay that was too long what I wrote to read it myself. Especially the piece prior to the last post. I have had to dig my heels in to come this far :P.


Let me just state here that my intent in asking the question about the high CPU load for plasmadesktop was not....

was NOT to get the problem solved ASAP. That was the intent YOU (or some of you) put into it.

My intent was to ask around. But others jumped in and asked me to go and try to solve it. They basically wanted MY HELP in solving MY PROBLEM because it is also their problem if they are invested in Kubuntu. They tried to turn me into a CONTRIBUTOR.

I was just asking around for help, but more, for ideas. I was wanting to know if other people also experienced that problem. I was not keen on going to solve it myself instantly. I could not. How could I?

I was just coming around, first time, In Kubuntu. I was not in the position to start solving difficult questions. The thread that user linked to was full of difficult programs in order to debug the issue. I was not up for that, And I Am Still Not.

I can't do that sort of thing, but I was also not asking for others to do that same thing. Meaning...

MEANING you were trying to make me do what I was not asking of you. And then you called me lazy and non-constructive. Because you wanted me to do work. For you.

[apachelogger]

It appears there was something going on before this thread that I am not aware of, and it appears as though there was something more going on that I am missing. All the same I feel some clarification is in order here so I'll do my best to outline what I think on what I have read....

My intent was to ask around. But others jumped in and asked me to go and try to solve it. They basically wanted MY HELP in solving MY PROBLEM because it is also their problem if they are invested in Kubuntu. They tried to turn me into a CONTRIBUTOR.

I really think GreyGeek's post was capturing the problem really well. There is no mine or yours here. Let me outline this from a developer point of view. What really any support request, any bug report, any sort of post on a potential bug/issue looks like to me.

Does my Plasma cause excessive CPU load? -> no
Can I buy my boyfriend lunch if I make it not use excessive CPU load in whatever scenario is applying here? -> no, I am not getting paied
Will I make people happy by solving the problem all the same? -> yes
Will I make more people use free software and embrace its concept by looking into this? -> probably

Yet I would be inclined to give MY time to resolve YOUR problem. My Plasma is not misbehaving and I am not getting anything tangible out of making yours not misbehave (other than a fuzzy feeling perhaps). I would do it because you'd be a nice chap, who deserves to have their Plasma not cause excessive CPU load and I want you to find free software and in particular KDE software awesome.

The majority of people in free software are doing things out of the kindness of their heart. To make the world a better place for everyone, as it were. And I thank them all the much for it, regardless of what they do from administrating servers the community uses, to development, to support or translations. But the thing to understand is that this includes you as a user. If one uses free software one becomes part of the community, regardless of whether one wants that or not. By using free software one is also supporting free software. That's kind of the awesome thing about it. One doesn't even have to do anything special and one is already contributing and should get a fuzzy feeling because one is making the world a better place.

Imagine a world where you knew no recipes of any kind and all you were able to do is go to a restaurant and pay a famous chef to prepare a delicious five course meal for you and your friends. A conceivable world it would be, it would not be quite as pasionate and free, and there probably would be much fewer delicious recipes. In a way everyone who cooks sort of contributes to the pursuit of the best, most delicious meal ever. For example when you talk to someone else about something as simple as how you make your cheese sandwich you are in a way contributing to making the best cheese sandwich ever. Eventually nothing major might come from this conversation, but eventually all discussion about cheese sandwiches and everyone's take on this releatively simple dish is going to lead to the best cheese sandwich ever. One isn't necessarily aware of it but by talking about cheese sandwiches one is contributing to the future fo this dish.

That is also the essence of free software. You present a problem and you *will be* asked to help find the cause and find a solution for the problem. Not because someone wants you to solve your own problem. But because if you have the problem, then a thousend other people have exactly the same problem but are too shy or cautious to create a forum account and tell us about it. You helping yourself with the help of others is also helping thousands of people around the world who didn't even mention they had this problem. It's not obvious, it doesn't give you anything tangible, and yet it can make the lifes of so many people better. And that is why I would encourage you to reconsider your stance on this.

Finally I will also say that in my opinion not wanting to do this is perfectly acceptable and I suppose simply saying so should end any discussion on this subject. If you don't want to contribute in this way that is your choice and everyone should respect it. Just like I believe if someone doesn't want to help someone for whatever reason, that is also their prerogative.

[xennex81]

Finally I will also say that in my opinion not wanting to do this is perfectly acceptable and I suppose simply saying so should end any discussion on this subject. If you don't want to contribute in this way that is your choice and everyone should respect it. Just like I believe if someone doesn't want to help someone for whatever reason, that is also their prerogative.

Of course, and thank you for your response, but I am really not that stupid ;-).

The issue was not about not wanting to do something. The issue in free software of this kind is that there is a perceived conflict between the personal interests and the interests of the group. The model is that the interests of the group are such that individuals must consider the interests of the group in order to contribute to those interests, while in reality (from my point of view) a user just doing what he/she wants to do best is already contributing everything that could ever be contributed. You don't have to give special consideration to the group.

Meaning, helping an individual, or wanting to help an individual, is good enough, you don't have to think in the back of your head about all those other people you might be helping with that. The moment you start doing that, you start to lose control and you start to lose sight of what that individual user wants because you are conflagrating it [conflating it] with the interests of that supposed group, that are like a fixed set of interests in your mind.

And so the individual user is LOST in your mindset and in your view and what he/she wants is now no longer seen, because it has been mixed and mingled already with the interests of the whole that is not really a whole (because the individual is lost in it).

For example, to give a very practical example:

BUG REPORTS. Users are required to create an account at bugs.kde.org and perhaps launchpad in order to file simple bugs or to contribute in this way even mediocrely. There is no simpler way to contribute. The more simple ways are to voice opinions on forums, or in CHAT. But those forms of contribution are generally condescended upon. So what is most attractive to a user, is laughed at or underappreciated (I really mean, condescended again, I find it hard to find that word always in English). Oh yeah, these forms of feedback (and contribution) are looked down upon. But these are the interests of the user that coincide most with what the user wants to do himself or herself.

The user wants to just get on with his day. She wants to just file a bug report and get on with it. But now there is even a counter in the bug report screen that says when you have filed enough words in your bug report. Just filing a bug report to the best you can is not good enough. They want even more of your time. You give a finger, and they want the entire hand. You didn't want to give an entire hand. You wanted to give a finger. But people are greedy. They want more CONTRIBUTION.

And this is the issue here. I hope it is understandable. I hope it is not too much or too verbose what I write here. The topic itself is not relevant, perhaps the title still is. This was all about being asked to go help myself in ways that I did not even want to do myself.

My issue with the open source software world, is that the banner is placed at the user for BECOMING that contributor the instant he or she sets foot in this world. It is not something that happens automatically as you say. Of course using it is a form of contribution, but that is never good enough (for the community). They always want more of you. Just being a user is not okay with them. You need to CONTRIBUTE. That word is always at the forefront of what ever message is broadcasted to new users. "HELP OUT". "WHAT CAN YOU DO". "BECOME INVOLVED". No, that's a bad way of doing it.

Users are shied away by that. They are turned away by that. Turned down by that. They just WANT to "contribute" but in the way of giving feedback. Their opinion counts, right? They should not be expected to give more than that at that stage. But people move too fast. People want other people to move too fast. We can't all be contributors. Sometimes sharing an opinion is good enough, but those forms are said to be "non-constructive".

So you come up with your best intentions and you are flamed for not contributing enough. That's what happened in this thread with that "level-headed" post by (GreyGeek?). They said "You can't expect us to do that stuff for you if you aren't willing to do it yourself, to jump in, to step in, to do your part." But I didn't WANT to do that. I was not that EAGER. I did not want to become INVOLVED to that EXTENT. And that's the whole issue.

It is about taking hands when someone offers a finger. It is about being condescending about lesser forms of contribution that often come in the form of opinion or feedback. It is said then that no one has the time to start reading "random opinion or feedback". It was voiced as "random rants, random complaints". But if you cannot VALUE the lesser parts, you can never value or obtain the whole. And this is why the FOSS world is so poor. So poor in terms of user experience. Because users are DISRESPECTED.

In Dutch they say "Who does not value the lesser, is not worth the greater." If you constantly break down the contributions that users are wanting to make, are wanting to make themselves, then you can never expect that contribution to grow, because that contribution is constantly rejected.

A user just comes up with an opinion or a complaint, which is the same thing. It is rejected. It is villified. It is not good enough for the people that be. They want more contribution, better contribution. But you first have to value and appreciate the lesser things, before they can grow in to bigger things. That doesn't happen. The smaller contributions are denied, rejected, turned away, not accepted.

Just general conversation is rejected because it is not GOOD ENOUGH.

[xennex81]

So what I'm saying here is that... the smallest form of contribution that you can make that is appreciated is bug reports and detailed researched problem solving forum threads. Smaller forms of contribution are not even recognised because they are ridiculed almost. But a bug report is TOO BIG of a contribution to start out with with any problem.

You have to pay special consideration to the user. What does he want? What is it she wants to do? It is not filing bug reports and ending up on a mailing list as every day more reports are filed for the same bug and they are merged and you get spam emails for all these merges and nothing happens at the bug but the merges just go on and .... not happy okay?

I've had at least 20 merge mails for a single bug. And the bug is not yet fixed.

Yes I contributed. Thanks to me, they zoomed in on the bug or the source of the problem more rapidly. So. Now I am a contributor. I don't want to be a contributor like that. I don't want to be spammed to death just for contributing. This is apparently the smallest contribution I could make, and it is much too big.

In Dutch we have a word called "drempel". It is called "doorstep" or "threshold". If the threshold is too high (the doorstep is too big) people are unwilling to come in. They won't come in the door. The drempel is too high. People try to make small contributions and they are laughed at and ridiculed, and scorned. "Nobody has the time to read your stuff" they say. "Developers don't come here and read your stuff." Well, I tried. Apparently, IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

And that's just the way it is. Users are rejected, denied. The doorstep to become involved is too high. Simple user requirements are forgotten, not taken seriously. This is why in general the user interface of most FOSS software is horrible.

Microsoft has also started to reject and deny the user, and no longer take the user seriously, when they introduced the Ribbon element and other forms. They started having political goals. It was no longer about keeping users happy, but about moving the company in a certain direction. Users fell by the wayside. Windows 8 is the most horrible experiment in a user interface section of a large product ever devised ;-). They could easily have gone in the direction of Kubuntu (or KDE) which is actually much more in tune with what a user wants (it is just less well out-developed and completed). The KDE experience is not all that bad. Gnome is actually pretty bad.

[xennex81]

Windows 8 is like this experiment about combining the Tablet with the Desktop forms. An experiment can't fail if it yields results, hence, we can call the experiment successful, but I think the end result is going to be that this combination does not work. I would have liked for them to create or design different user interfaces for both form factors, not one for both. But then, that would have made them overly successful, which I don't want :P.

[jlittle]

... the smallest form of contribution that you can make that is appreciated is bug reports and detailed researched problem solving forum threads...

I think posting here is a form of contribution, and the odd helpful remark is certainly appreciated. Taking the trouble to present one's POV as you have is appreciated. IMO this forum really frowns on condescension, and the new guy does not have to apologize for being so, or perform ritual abasement before presenting their problem; I find such apologies and abasement quite tedious on other forums.

Microsoft has also started to reject and deny the user, and no longer take the user seriously, when they introduced the Ribbon element and other forms. They started having political goals. It was no longer about keeping users happy, but about moving the company in a certain direction.

Started... Had been standard practice for many years before the ribbon. Examples abound. Not the worst of their pernicious behaviour, check out Embrace, extend and extinguish.

[SteveRiley]

Harald says:

If you don't want to contribute in this way that is your choice and everyone should respect it. Just like I believe if someone doesn't want to help someone for whatever reason, that is also their prerogative.

But then xennex says:

They always want more of you. Just being a user is not okay with them.

Xennex, if you actively refuse to believe the very words of one of Kubuntu's core developers, then I don't know what any of us can do for you.

[xennex81]

It is not about any one's words. Her (or his) sentiments do not reflect the sentiments of a great many others. And typically it is a sentiment that may not even be recognized. I agree with jlittle that this forum is certainly a bliss compared to many others. But even in Kubuntu there is a sentiment of wanting to contribute or /needing/ to contribute and I was speaking of this sentiment. There is a gist of actively getting people in. This pull is too strong in the sense of not allowing people to really decide it for themselves. I was told here that nobody had time to read my complaints. This is very common in the Linux world. What I said: the smallest contributions are often denied because it is not good enough or not /enough/. The finger and the hand. Recognise this.

Even bug reports have a screen (in the crash reporter) that tells of how many words you have written and whether it is enough. It will reject bug reports that have too little or too little debug information. It shows this information in an obnoxious way. What's this about believing? You can see it straight away!

RECOGNISE THIS.

Much about the Kubuntu system (particularly bug reports and how it is constructed) is not user friendly. I must have had a hundred merge mails for a single bug (because I'm on the CC list). That means there have been a hundred (or close to it) new filings of the same bug and someone is arduously merging them or collecting them and marking them as duplicates. It doesn't work! This system doesn't work. It is wasting everyone's time.

Bug reporting takes 15 minutes if you don't have an account and then still and it keeps wasting your time. Why? Because people feel it is only right that someone who files a bug should "get involved". Or stay involved. And although a little of it is helpful, this is too much. Perhaps I'm sidetracking a little here but I can hardly edit as I'm on my phone.

[xennex81]

The whole idea of bugreporting as the first step of getting involved is wrong. Searching for bugs as the first step is even more so. If there are bugs they should be documented. This is limiting the scope of the system and limited scope is what makes for user friendliness.

I don't know what else to write here; I can't do it on my phone.

The sentiment in Linux has long been that if you want to have a say you should get involved but these people believe that /saying it/ is not a way of getting involved. Which is ludicrous. Someone is /getting/ involved and is then flamed and blamed for not being it, which is rejecting the involvement that is already taking place (because it is not good enough or not enough). No involvement must be of a specific kind and a specific amount or it doesn't count. Having a say then becomes being in a position of power. So the real philosophy is then those who are in power get to decide. Dictatorial and we see it with Shuttleworth.

[Qqmike]

But even in Kubuntu there is a sentiment of wanting to contribute or /needing/ to contribute and I was speaking of this sentiment. There is a gist of actively getting people in. This pull is too strong in the sense of not allowing people to really decide it for themselves. I was told here that nobody had time to read my complaints. This is very common in the Linux world. What I said: the smallest contributions are often denied because it is not good enough or not /enough/. The finger and the hand. Recognise this.

I'd say nobody gives a sh*t Not in the negative sense, but in the sense that you are free, free to do it or not. Free to do what you want. No one is holding their breath to see what you'll do or not do. Nobody is watching you or keeping tabs or running an accounting system on you.

What counts is action, not words. DO something and people will notice and people will express their happiness and gratitude, or they will tell you it's interesting for you but not for them. But at least there will be something real to talk about rather than words about words. Or, don't do anything, and that's fine, too--nobody gives a sh*t, in the positive sense of freedom of behavior.

Kubuntu/Linux not user friendly? If you want intimacy go to a French Wh*house, or get a girl/boy/converted friend. And Windows is what, friendly? Got a problem? Ever talk to a Windows pal on the phone or by email, are they friendly with you? Try to research a Windows problem, what do you get, a closed circle of kb references mutually referencing each other, usually none of which are even close to solving anything.

Bug reports, yeah, that is sidetracking a bit. I can't help but notice, though, that many, many people who have a problem like to rant, whine, cry (poor me, why is it this way?), and complain, but will not file a bug report. Many who do file a bug report first feel the need to over-rant, over-whine, over -complain a bit before filing. And for those people, I say, take responsibility: you gonna whine and rant? then at least help follow-up and follow-though with a little bit of the bug-report testing.

It doesn't work! This system doesn't work. It is wasting everyone's time.

Ha! Interesting proclamation. It is working, we are all writing from some Linux OS, aren't we? and for free--I'm free to do so as I please, it's free money-wise, and it's free and open if I wish to help write or test some code or make suggestions. It sure as hell is working. It is working here at my desk, where I am right this very minute, anyway.

And you/we/one is free to let it go and to go themselves, to leave. This is not Russia or China or North Korea. It is a "loose but tight" community of Linux people (users, developers, observers, writers, testers, reviewers, what have you). You are not forced to stay or to play. I mean, I had similar dissatisfied feelings about Windows once, and I left, and now I'm here and happier if not gloriously ecstatically manically happy-happy.

No involvement must be of a specific kind and a specific amount or it doesn't count. Having a say then becomes being in a position of power. So the real philosophy is then those who are in power get to decide.

Welcome to planet earth. You may also get to decide, but you also need some power. Power comes from your actions. Act on something that people care about and then you'll get noticed and power will naturally flow your way. Power--not short-term but lasting power--doesn't come from issuing empty words and nothing else. (Of course, money is also power and that's another issue: Taking action by donating huge sums of money is kind of cheating and not always benevolent, but let's not go there in this already muddy issue.)

Back to Linux, don't get too sensitive, don't imagine more than there is. And if someone tells you that you are imagining more than there is, take them at their word. And, speaking of words, they are important, I'm a word-guy myself, I like words. But words are not the reality, the map is not the territory. Ultimately, at some point, what really counts is some kind of action. Not simply stringing, winding, concatenating, permuting, juxtaposing, and combining string after string of characters complied as words. Action is the decision that counts. Then we'll actually have something half-way real to talk about with our words.

[xennex81]

You are a real bully, you know that.

Your words are empty, not mine. You kinda prove exactly what I wrote here: the smallest contributions are disregarded. Users are insulted for them. They are "too sensitive". Well guess what, the world is full of sensitive people, not everyone has a brick wall around them. Sensitive people with sensitive regards are disserviced by the linux community that is mostly composed of men. We were not born that way: that insensitive.