Windows vs. Linux [my usage]

[TiberiusDuval]

I usually follow philosophy of "if it is not broken do not fix it". Maybe something replacing FHS would be better than it, but will it be so much better that problems arising from replacing FHS are fully mitigated by such betterment?

[xennex81]

With current system for example I can figure out pretty fast where some setting file will be located (usually /etc) and so on. Do something like change it to Windows-like system, and all that old knowledge becomes obsolete.

You're assuming that nothing good will replace it. You can see nothing on the horizon yet so you are just making up nightmares that don't really exist. Any creative endeavour starts out with nothing. And if a system is much easier you don't even NEED that old knowledge ;-).

[xennex81]

My 10 cents: Only reason you'll need to work beyound /home is tinkering with system. And needing to do that constantly is quite rare. At least that's my experience. Even portable mass storage can be mounted from leftmost panel of Dolphin without need to go to /media (or whatever it is nowadays).
And changing FHS is not very easy thing to do, it'll most likely break backwards compatibility, and also thoroughly wreck whatever portability Linux still has with other unix-like systems. Also quite many users would not like it. With current system for example I can figure out pretty fast where some setting file will be located (usually /etc) and so on. Do something like change it to Windows-like system, and all that old knowledge becomes obsolete.

So you're quite right that I want to create something new because the bare Linux system doesn't work for me. That's why I spend my time tinkering, of course. Thus far I have achieved this (not much):

* I know how to create logical volumes in LVM, how to encrypt them, how to encrypt partitions, and with a lot of effort (that stuff is not easy) how to shrink existing partitions and create new setups out of them when you already have encryption and LVM running
* I know (barely) how to use Aufs to merge two folder structures in a good way
* My preference is to mount volumes (other than root) in a /mounts structure (listing) and remount them from there to their needed locations.
....That creates doubly visible folder structures but at least you know where to put things, and if you could finetune your filemanager you could achieve an appealing display (view) of your data.
....This also makes it very easy to use Aufs to create merged directories of any kind.
* I am still met by someting (that btrfs solves) which is the fact that you cannot mount any subdirectory of a filesystem anywhere just like that. For instance, supposing you want one volume with both /home and /projects (just saying anything) but you want /home to be mounted in /, and you want /projects to be mounted under /store. It's not possible. You first have to mount the thing somewhere and then you can rebind it somewhere else (hence the previous point).

Also something: I believe a good audio/album structure for music files should use a form of virtual filesystem to display different types of organisation according to metadata. This *can* be achieved quite simply in Linux using symlinks and something that updates those symlinks. What you'd get is that you have like a single database (of music) but you can split the view according to, for instance, lossless vs lossy, genre, artist, album+artist, whatever you want. It would be very easy to create a new view -- this is of "album-contained" data. So yes, I am about development; I like to develop better systems and solutions and I come across them everywhere, I'm not short of ideas for a thousand more years of development/programming ;-).

In that way: power to the people because you can simply copy anything out of or into that virtual filesystem (if it is a real virtual filesystem) that you want and it will be correctly organized in the "true static backstore". All you need is a perfect model and then everything else is easy and not very costly.

I am seriously simply in the business of making people more effective with their time by creating software that doesn't put up blocks to what you want to achieve. Much of the software we have today is a great time-waster and this is especially true of non-commercial applicances and applications. Someone who doesn't care about the end-user generally doesn't care about the end user.

I was just on the OwnCloud forums, and ... more on that later ;-).

[TiberiusDuval]

My 10 cents: Only reason you'll need to work beyound /home is tinkering with system. And needing to do that constantly is quite rare. At least that's my experience. Even portable mass storage can be mounted from leftmost panel of Dolphin without need to go to /media (or whatever it is nowadays).
And changing FHS is not very easy thing to do, it'll most likely break backwards compatibility, and also thoroughly wreck whatever portability Linux still has with other unix-like systems. Also quite many users would not like it. With current system for example I can figure out pretty fast where some setting file will be located (usually /etc) and so on. Do something like change it to Windows-like system, and all that old knowledge becomes obsolete.

[xennex81]

Nice. I should check out that POL. By the way, you can turn Windows update off. You don't need to install those updates.

[GreyGeek]

Play on Linux.

Simon, are you the author of this wiki page? http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...f_Aragon/Linux

Amazing, Snowhog! Earlier this morning I read your post asking about Simon and POL. At noon today my 14 year old grandson called and asked me to install a game for him. The file he was trying to load was STWORsetup.exe, for Star Wars Old Republic gamine on Windows. My first thought was simply to boot into the Win7 side and run it from there, but neither he nor I remembered the Win7 login password. Also, I gave him that machine two years ago and he has not booted to the Windows side since since he got it. There would probably be tens of thousands of updates to download and install, along with multiple reboots and updating of the AV software, Not so good. My second thought was to install WINE and create a WINE bottle for it, but then I remembered POL A quick check found it in the repository and I installed it. Then I pointed it to the exe he downloaded and after the installation was complete (including downloading a bunch of windows files) the login screen was presented. My grandson entered his login credentials he had created earlier and the game took off. I was amazed at the LONG list of games that could be installed with POL. I don't know how well it played but he hasn't called back in the last two hours to complain.

[xennex81]

that is exactly my point.

I don't think it was.

can't say i care for mac os either. i find it mostly useless for myself now. i really only use mac os to build test and package the mac os version of applications i write.

That's not really using it ;-). But you probably know more about the system than most regular users.

that is a joke right ?

No. I have no real preference for either Linux or Windows at this point. If the situation was reversed, and I was wanting to do something with Windows and the Windows devs/users was maintaining that the system had no flaws and did not need improvement, I would equally be chastising them for their incompetence. As it stands, the only reason I put so much effort in 'ranting' about Linux's obvious failings is because I care about Linux much more than I care about Windows at this point.

I mean, WTF is Microsoft doing with all those "UI" improvements? I had Windows 10 installed and it's just one big experiment because Microsoft's goals are so conflicting with their software asaservice intentions and they don't really know what they're doing. All they care about is selling their online platform and it's madness. If you don't want in on OneDrive etc the system is suddenly your enemy. What the hell is the point of creating an entire system when half of it is questionable and most if not many users are at least slightly uncomfortable? It is never going to work and Microsoft is not going to survive. They're cutting huge numbers of jobs already.

So I'm not partial. I really have goals with what I write and Microsoft or Linux is equal to me as long as I can achieve my goals. For me it's not ideological but rather practical (maybe even opportunistic).

So you may think I'm hostile to Linux but it is not so. I'm really trying very hard to make my way into it and I'm trying to raise my level of comfort but it's not easy. It's really a steep uphill battle. Whereas getting used to Windows was always a bliss... (I mostly mean in the past, today it is rotten).......

There has been a time earlier when I gave up on Linux. I could not handle it mentally. The constant frustration made me mad and my brain was too weak to handle that emotion. I had to quit using it for my personal health.

That was KDE in some OpenSUSE version I think. It might have been Gnome. Ubuntu was not yet prominent at that time. I could not work with it no matter how hard I tried.

Yes you have a different view on it as i have said elsewhere in this thread i like the FHS.

You seem to approach it only from a developer's point of view. A friend of mine, I said, the problem of Linux is it's being developed by Linux users. He responded, the problem of Mac is it's being developed by Mac users ;-). (He is a Mac guy (and FreeBSD)).

As a developer it makes it easier for me to deploy applications i write for linux .. mac is is just annoying ... and windows is not much better ...

If that is the only or the most important criterium..... ?. I mean, this way there won't be any users to actually use your software.

As an end users i know that if i need to edit somethings configuration its located in either /etc or ~/.config depending on if its a system wide config or user.

Ironically, Apache is the worst "Windows" app to configure of all I've used. It has no configuration tool. Any normal Windows program has a config tool. Not the Apache port. You have to edit the config file which is just rotten if you don't know how to do it. For the simplest of things. A real unfriendly program.

So "knowing where the config files are" is not really the epitome of user friendliness. Not HAVING to edit anything is more like, the epitome of that. Of course, being able to means power. Git has a config tool that is a front end to the config files. You could easily give that a real GUI front end. Everything is a command so configuration is easy to script and automate, and easy to do with a graphical config tool.

The weird thing about Linux is that there are not more good nCurses programs. Remember "make menuconfig"? That IS user friendly.

[sithlord48]

Bla bla bla.

that is exactly my point.

I don't even like MacOS or Finder.

can't say i care for mac os either. i find it mostly useless for myself now. i really only use mac os to build test and package the mac os version of applications i write.

I'm sorry you can't look beyond this Windows vs. Linux hostility.

that is a joke right ?

I'm probably been using FHS for longer than you, but not sure. I just have different ideas about it.

Yes you have a different view on it as i have said elsewhere in this thread i like the FHS.

As a developer it makes it easier for me to deploy applications i write for linux .. mac is is just annoying because of its bundle system requires you to ship any dependencies in the bundle and windows is not much better only real difference is that the windows bundles are shown as folder and the mac os ones are shows as an .app file

As an end users i know that if i need to edit somethings configuration its located in either /etc or ~/.config depending on if its a system wide config or user.

[xennex81]

Why doesn't the program, file system, OS, or DE automatically know where things are?

On Gnome they have an app called "Music" and a thing called "Tracker" that collects music files as the backend for that Music. Apparently the Ubuntu Gnome people have a problem with that Tracker because you can't select the location for the music files so Tracker won't find your files if it's somewhere else.

Different operating systems act differently , different DE's all work differently and different programs with different use cases work differently. Why would you think otherwise.

Bla bla bla.

and before you say oh i don't expect it to work like whatever go read what you posted its basicly linux is bad cause it don't work like windows or mac os.. dolphin is bad cause its not like explorer or finder..

I don't even like MacOS or Finder. I'm sorry you can't look beyond this Windows vs. Linux hostility.

The FHS is bad cause its not how im used to ...

I'm probably been using FHS for longer than you, but not sure. I just have different ideas about it.

[sithlord48]

i had a long comment about alot of your ranting but it sums up to this.

Different operating systems act differently , different DE's all work differently and different programs with different use cases work differently. Why would you think otherwise.

and before you say oh i don't expect it to work like whatever go read what you posted its basicly linux is bad cause it don't work like windows or mac os.. dolphin is bad cause its not like explorer or finder.. The FHS is bad cause its not how im used to ...

[Simon]

Play on Linux.

Simon, are you the author of this wiki page? http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...f_Aragon/Linux

The front page was designed by my guild leader, Wendy Black who took the screenshot of me in the guild hall. She is a wizard of wiki. I later picked up and made some individual pages beyond that one. Yes the information on that page is 100% mine.

I have also used my "awesome powers" to help out at Wine HQ when I can.

[xennex81]

As to the file system discussion, why do us Joe Users even have to know about t he file system, or where files go?
(While my attempts to remain a Joe Average User may not be successful, I do strive to remain one as much as possible)

Hey, I agree with you on principle.

Why doesn't the program, file system, OS, or DE automatically know where things are?
On my shiny new phone, Android is sort of like this, a little.

Apple has tried to achieve this with making everything default and uncustomizable. Many search and library systems try to turn everything into metadata. I believe that is the way of the future but I have not seen a system that I liked. That means you lose power instead of gaining it. Ultimately it depends on how good the philosophical concept is. But I must say I like Clementine's library feature and I use it instead of files. First media library I've ever used.

I wonder how they will handle things as phones hold more and more - mine supports up to 2TB sdcards(!!?!!) whenever those are available.

I think it will go fine. Phones are appliances. I have issues with my phone's video library function though. I have so much on it that I can hardly find what I need.

[xennex81]

An interesting write-up about the number eight.
I agree with you a limited number of choices or depth of a tree helps navigation by memory. (At least that's how I perceive your reasoning)

It is easier on your mind in general, and easyness translates to fastness (low effort). There is a difference between remembering and recognising, recognising is much faster (less costly) and easy to do in a gui. If you consequently (or consistently) have only a few (not too small, not too many) choices to remember, traversal is fastest. Many menu systems are very cluttered, providing too many choices in a single list (e.g. GIMP, MS Word, OpenOffice), and Microsoft has tried to tackle it with hiding menu entries which didn't work all that well and now they've settled for "ribbon" which is much worse and they should have gone with the number 8 but no one has developed that concept yet. (KDE application menu has about 8 categories).

At the same time I prefer a file manager with a GUI so I don't have to remember every branch of the tree, it is in a very easy to understand and navigate display before me, a bit like the old XTree-Gold.

Sure, but it is still helpful if there are only a limited number of familiar categories to remember and in a computer system it is very rare to come across completely unknown branches (unless you do a lot of searching, which is my hateful thing).

In class I teach to dump the icon view and use 'detail' view in the file manager, that way you know what the file contains and which version you are looking at, towards the end of class most agree this is the only sensible layout for a complex system.

It would be helpful if the detailed list view in Kubuntu actually made sense but it collapsed into something that looks like a tree (for folders) which doesn't make sense. The nondetailed list view provides little of value and so I default to the icon view which is too dispersed to be really helpful.

But in general in Windows for the past 7 years I have always organized everything around the number 8 (unknowingly) for example the number of audio categories was (hiphop + industrial + metal + teenage rock + sweet pop + post rock + piano + pop) = about 8. It just works very well. If the number of categories starts to grow, I start to reorganise. I have always done this. List items (actual albums) don't have to be limited, since they are not categories.

But many real-world problems we are tackling on a computer can't be easily (if at all) reduced to so few choices, a typical production plant will have a multitude of sensors that need to be addressed and displayed.

Sensors are also not categories but it may help to group them.

Although you don't mention it directly I believe many of your Dolphin problems are because you've never fully investigated it's options like right clicking and the detailed view.
(The right click is all but unknown on an iShiny!)

I am not an iShiny person but it is not easy to discover something when the default is so bad that you can't even use the software well enough to investigate. You first have to stick around for a while before you can learn but if you don't do that (because you hate the software) that doesn't happen. Do not think for a second that I'm a bad learner. I just have better things to do than to spend time on using software that doesn't work in the hopes of getting it to work (for me).

Take your remark about the 'difficult to find' USB drive, it's right in your face on Dolphin's Places menu!

Not in places in Devices. You can put it to Places I think. I'm not a mouse using person if I can help it. I just like to get somewhere by quick fast typing. The devices view is pretty disorienting. I often have to guess which device it is based on the volume size or something (not sure). So it is slow. Only Places works reasonably well with a bit of training (and remembering).

my Windows work computer is constantly having issues like assigning a new USB drive to a letter that's already in use as a network drive making both inaccessible (:

Really? Never had THAT happen to me. You can reassign drive letters to whatever position you wish. No problem. Just go to "Computer Management" and then "Drive Management".

I really wish Windows would have a file manager like Dolphin. (the multi-pane managers we had in the Win3 days are gone)

There is XYPlorer. It seems to have an active community and fan base and has many powerful features. It has multi-pane and multi-tab and supports direct pane-to-pane operations and much more. It has a commercial license but I believe the free version is free.

The konsole offered through the F4 key does have a limited number of rows but the last real Unix computer (OS9) I used had a screen with 24 lines of 40 characters and we thought it was fine.

I don't care much about that. It works for me, or it doesn't work for me. I liked that Kubuntu 14.10 had "open in konsole" but it was gone in Plasma 5.

About names like usr, I started programming on a machine with 3K of RAM, user instead of usr would've cost 33% more memory!

pff, what reason to choose something..

PS, I wish you a quick recovery!

Thanks man. I'm sorry if I sound like a loser or whiner or complainer. I guess everyone has his difficulties in life and one problem is not necessarily worse than another. My apologies. Truly. I will not whine anymore.

[Snowhog]

By the way I didn't know what POL is.

Play on Linux.

Simon, are you the author of this wiki page? http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...f_Aragon/Linux

[xennex81]

The trick to running D2;

Right. I managed to get D2 running in a Window (800x600) but only as long as I kept it in the top left corner of my screen, otherwise weird clipping would ensue. (Part of the window didn't display correctly). 800x600 is too small to play it well though. You are saying I can get it at a higher resolution (size) in a virtual desktop. I'll give that a try. Thank you.

But recently I have downloaded Steam for Linux and bought Borderlands II not to mention all the free games available.

I bought Borderlands 2 too. Runs fine on my system. Haven't played it long, not really my kind of game, but the humour is just too awesome. I plan on doing some more in it when I can but I died at the first encounter pretty bad ;-).

When I desire to play a game, I do the research and find the way. Linux OS wasn't created to be a "gaming console", but oddly enough it has done a pretty good job.

By contrast, I only complain and let others do my work for me. That way I don't have to do work others have already done for me ;-). I'm evil that way. It is my way of contributing to the openmindedness of the Linux world ;-). Hahaha. I'm happy you're such a good person. I can make use of you X-D.

By the way I didn't know what POL is.