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[Wheel Inventor]

About testing Linux distributions (Arch) and package managers

I think that the easiest way is to use a virtual installation.



When you have a working installation you could copy the virtual installation to the hardware.
With the Arch, in the testing phase, you could simply copy&paste the commands.


The pacman ( https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman ) is a powerful tool from the cli. Those who can't use the cli there are plenty of front ends: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php...cman_frontends


KDE/Qt

[dibl]

The thing with Debian is that so many of the packages are just old. I was chatting with my son yesterday. He's getting into IRC. I told him about Quassel, and how having a Quassel core running on the home server here would allow him to see chat histories. The Quassel in Debian 8 is 0.10 -- which is more than a year old. The current version is 0.12.2, released in May. The Quassel folks aren't even supporting 0.10 anymore, but Debian testing and Debian unstable still contain Quassel 0.10.

Ubuntu Server 15.04 has Quassel 0.12.2. It's been backported to earlier releases. Seems that if you want a Debian-based server with up-to-date packages, Ubuntu is the only choice. Are there any other Debian-based distros that stay up to date?

This got my attention -- I've always thought Debian sid does a reasonable job keeping up. I think the Quassel situation is a bit of an outlier, although it does support your case. So as not to simply flog my favorite distro, but rather make it a bit educational I compared a dozen of my personal most-used non-proprietary packages between Kubuntu 15.4 and my siduction system which is fully updated. I was not surprised -- they are really quite similar and neither is far ahead or behind in adoption of updated packages, at least in this moment in time. Here it is, packages and version numbers:

Package	Kubuntu	siduction
Iceweasel/Firefox	39.0	38.1
plasma-desktop	5.2.2	5.3.2
phonon	4.8.3	4.8.3
pulseaudio	6.0	6.0
audacity	2.0.6	2.1.1 (dmo repo)
libreoffice	4.4.2	4.4.4
gimp	2.8.14	2.8.14
k3b	2.0.3	2.0.2-8
qemu	2.2	2.3
conky	1.9.0	1.10.0
chromium	43.0	44.0
xsane	0.998-6	0.999-2

[SteveRiley]

Siduction doesn't have something like http://packages.debian.org or http://packages.ubuntu.com. What versions of the following are in Siduction:

• kernel
• Postfix
• Dovecot
• Spam Assassin
• Apache
• Bind9
• ISC DHCP server
• MySQL
• OpenSSL
• OpenVPN
• PHP

I half suspect they're the same as Debian sid.

[GreyGeek]

I completed the installation of Arch as a guest OS and included both the Gnome and KDE Plasma desktops. Gnome is a disorganized mess and Plasma 5 is an example of logic and beauty, albeit still a work in progress. I don't see anything special about Arch, especially in Gnome. If you don't know the exact name (and spelling) of the app you want to install pacman isn't much help. I installed a GUI front end to pacman and that helped, but it is nowhere near the power of muon. Installing and running arch must be a rite of passage of some kind ... where you can carry your nads or ovs around in a wheelbarrow for all to admire. For certain a noob cannot install Arch by inserting a CD and choosing the install option and answering a few questions. I heard about Arch's vaunted speed and thin waist line. I didn't see any speed worth mentioning, especially in Gnome. KDE5 was faster. If someone asked me what is the best way to learn Linux I would not use Arch as the example. I'd tell them to try Linux From Scratch. When they were done they could blow it off their HD and install Kubuntu because what they learned in LFS would only apply to LFS, for the most part.

My curiosity about Arch is satisfied. I will keep it around to see how KDE5 turns out, because I don't know when it will stabilize and appear in the backports for 14.04.

[NickStone]

Gnome is a disorganized mess and Plasma 5 is an example of logic and beauty,

Could you please explain how Gnome is disorganised in your opinion?

For certain a noob cannot install Arch by inserting a CD and choosing the install option and answering a few questions.

Arch is and never was designed for the newbie linux user. There is however, a newbie friendly distro based on Arch called Manjaro.

If someone asked me what is the best way to learn Linux I would not use Arch as the example. I'd tell them to try Linux From Scratch. When they were done they could blow it off their HD and install Kubuntu because what they learned in LFS would only apply to LFS, for the most part.

I agree, the best way to learn Linux is to use LFS, or Gentoo or Funtoo (or any other distro where you have to build the OS from the ground up), not something like Ubuntu.

[gnomek]

I will keep it around to see how KDE5 turns out, because I don't know when it will stabilize and appear in the backports for 14.04.

Is Plasma 5 planned to go to 14.04 backports?

Will Kubuntu be released based on snappy release?

[sithlord48]

Is Plasma 5 planned to go to 14.04 backports?

Not likely

[Snowhog]

https://xkcd.com/927/

Thanks for this!

I've seen these comics before, and the style and content really strikes a cord with me. I've bookmarked the site so I can return again (and again, and again, and ....) to keep my humor levels up.

[dibl]

I half suspect they're the same as Debian sid.

Yes, siduction IS Debian sid, at least 99%. That is a standard repo on a siduction system. If a package exists in Debian sid, and isn't known to be broken, then that is the package that gets installed (and updated) on your siduction system. As I noted for audacity, some multimedia packages are newer in the dmo repo, and so if you want you can enable that repo and the newer package will be pulled in. Occasionally, doing that can be a cause of problems, but not often. There are some packages that the siduction devs patch up or otherwise improve for the distro, and those are found in the siduction repo. Of the sub-repos that you see there, the typical user would only need base, extra, and fixes. kdenext and xfcenext are for the enthusiasts of those desktops to get advanced versions of stuff.

EDIT:

Sorry, the kernel question. Kernels are built by towo` using upstream Linux kernels that he believes are ready for prime time. I would say that new kernels are released roughly every two or three weeks, but they can come faster than that, at times, and occasionally he releases a "testing" kernel for those who like to do such things. inxi is a nice little utility script that is useful to show configuration items, so I'll use that now.

don@Hibiscus:/$ inxi -v3
System:    Host: Hibiscus Kernel: 4.1.3-towo.1-siduction-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.1.1)
           Desktop: KDE Plasma 5 (Qt 5.4.2) Distro: siduction 14.1.0 Indian Summer - kde - (201411230337)
Machine:   System: ASUS product: All Series
           Mobo: ASUSTeK model: Z87-WS v: Rev 1.xx Bios: American Megatrends v: 2004 date: 06/05/2014
CPU:       Quad core Intel Core i7-4770 (-HT-MCP-) cache: 8192 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 28024
           clock speeds: max: 3900 MHz 1: 3399 MHz 2: 3400 MHz 3: 3400 MHz 4: 3398 MHz 5: 3400 MHz
           6: 3401 MHz 7: 3443 MHz 8: 3401 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA GM107 [GeForce GTX 750 Ti] bus-ID: 05:00.0
           Display Server: X.Org 1.17.2 driver: nvidia Resolution: 1920x1200@59.88hz
           GLX Renderer: GeForce GTX 750 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 GLX Version: 4.5.0 NVIDIA 346.82 Direct Rendering: Yes
Network:   Card-1: Intel I210 Gigabit Network Connection driver: igb v: 5.2.15-k port: d000 bus-ID: 07:00.0
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: e0:3f:49:e6:85:c3
           Card-2: Intel I210 Gigabit Network Connection driver: igb v: 5.2.15-k port: a000 bus-ID: 0a:00.0
           IF: eth1 state: down mac: e0:3f:49:e6:85:c4
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 3220.7GB (26.5% used) ID-1: model: OCZ
           ID-2: model: Hitachi_HTS72101 ID-3: model: OCZ
           ID-4: model: WDC_WD1001FALS ID-5: model: WDC_WD1000DHTZ
           ID-6: model: WDC_WD1000DHTZ
Info:      Processes: 270 Uptime: 3:01 Memory: 2095.2/7927.6MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 5.1.1
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.391) inxi: 2.2.26

[GreyGeek]

Could you please explain how Gnome is disorganised in your opinion?

It starts out nicely, with a blank screen and a panel at the top. On the right are access to network, screen and logout facilities. On the left is an "Activities" menu. Click it and a vertical dock with four options appears on the left side of the screen. So far so good. Click the checkered icon and a vertically scrollable pile of icons appear, with no apparent order. One big pot. Start any particular app. When you quit it you have an empty desktop again ... the dock is gone. It would be nice if the dock stayed until the "Activities" menu option was clicked again to remove it. It would be nice if the pot of icons were broken up into categories and subcatagories based on function. The pot of icons seems to re-arrange themselves with no apparent order. That pot doesn't contain all the applications present on the HD. Also, as mentioned before, pacman alone has the same weaknesses that apt-get alone has. The user has to search the web to locate a a GUI to pacman but not all gui's are in the repository. Optopi, for example, and several others that I tried.

But, that's just the Gnome side. On the KDE5 side is beauty and order. The more I play with it the more I like its looks and feel. Unlike Gnome's apps, the plasma apps are quick and nimble, and that is on the same system with the same internal configurations. Both are on a 1024X780 display. On the Gnome side when I display a terminal it takes up the entire screen and cannot be reduced to take up less space. I've encountered this with every Gnome app I've run. On the Plasma side I can resize windows to take up less desktop real-estate.

When I tried the 15.04 version of Kubuntu to test out Plasma 5 I found it to be unstable and buggy. So far, on the Arch version, Plasma 5 is rock solid with everything I've tried.

IMO, for those who can understand how to install it, the KDE Plasma 5 desktop on Arch is a viable alternative.

If Plasma 5 isn't back ported to 14.04 I will be more than happy to wait until I upgrade to 19.04 to get it because KDE4 is an excellent desktop. Apparently MS thinks so to. They've appeared to borrow tons of stuff from Kubuntu's install, menus, desktop, etc. KDE has been around since 1998 and KDE4 since of 2007 with a release in January of 2008. When Win7 came out a year and a half later I was stunned to see how much of KDE was in Win7. I'm reading reports from folks who have installed W10 and they say it looks and feels like a KDE desktop. They are asking why the source code isn't available since the W10 L&F is so similar to KDE, which is GPL.

[NickStone]

It starts out nicely, with a blank screen and a panel at the top. On the right are access to network, screen and logout facilities. On the left is an "Activities" menu. Click it and a vertical dock with four options appears on the left side of the screen. So far so good. Click the checkered icon and a vertically scrollable pile of icons appear, with no apparent order. One big pot. Start any particular app. When you quit it you have an empty desktop again ... the dock is gone. It would be nice if the dock stayed until the "Activities" menu option was clicked again to remove it. It would be nice if the pot of icons were broken up into categories and subcatagories based on function. The pot of icons seems to re-arrange themselves with no apparent order. That pot doesn't contain all the applications present on the HD.

Icons don't display in any particular order? There in alphabetical order of the name of the app. Also the dock displays apps that you assign as favourites and once you run an app there is no need to keep the dock on screen which is why it disappears giving more room for the app or apps on the screen.

Also, as mentioned before, pacman alone has the same weaknesses that apt-get alone has. The user has to search the web to locate a a GUI to pacman but not all gui's are in the repository. Optopi, for example, and several others that I tried.

Any apps not in the Arch repository you should find in the AUR (Arch User Repository) which you install by using the yaourt command in the same way as pacman i.e. yaourt -S <name of package>

But, that's just the Gnome side. On the KDE5 side is beauty and order. The more I play with it the more I like its looks and feel. Unlike Gnome's apps, the plasma apps are quick and nimble, and that is on the same system with the same internal configurations. Both are on a 1024X780 display. On the Gnome side when I display a terminal it takes up the entire screen and cannot be reduced to take up less space. I've encountered this with every Gnome app I've run. On the Plasma side I can resize windows to take up less desktop real-estate.

The apps can be displayed in window mode or full screen, you must have strange set up if all the apps were in full screen mode with no ability to change to window mode.

[sithlord48]

yaourt is not in the base repo its also in the AUR.. so to get it you need to either add teh repo for it or download the PKGBUILD file then run makepkg PKGBUILD more info here https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt

yaourt is a really great program and the AUR is much better then the PPA setup since there is no need to add line to your sources. Its worse in someways because you will not get updates for those packages usually and will have to build them


pacman -Q <query> will let you search

you should use Octopi for package management it will handle you system and AUR installed stuff as well as give you a nice Gui to do it with (it also checks if your AUR packages are out of date)

[GreyGeek]

....

pacman -Q <query> will let you search

I tried that using what I thought were the names or were parts of the names. It never once returned any result. I went searching for a pacman GUI and kept trying "pacman -S somename" until I found one that installed. After that things were a lot easier

you should use Octopi for package management it will handle you system and AUR installed stuff as well as give you a nice Gui to do it with (it also checks if your AUR packages are out of date)

Neither "Octopi" nor "octopi" would install using pacman. After I installed a pacman gui I found that octopi wasn't in the repository.

It doesn't matter. I have never been a fan of Gnome and don't really care how it looks or runs since I will never use it.

[NickStone]

yaourt is a really great program and the AUR is much better then the PPA setup since there is no need to add line to your sources. Its worse in someways because you will not get updates for those packages usually and will have to build them

That's funny 'coz I've installed packages from AUR and have received updates from the AUR.

[NickStone]

It doesn't matter. I have never been a fan of Gnome and don't really care how it looks or runs since I will never use it.

Your coming across as a real Kubuntu/KDE fanboi