I am ashamed.

[Snowhog]

When the government breaks its own laws and is not held accountable, where else can we as citizens turn?

We turn to ourselves. We stop being subservient to "Government" and 'act' to take back what is ours. I'm not fomenting armed revolution, but neither am I saying it wouldn't EVER be a necessary course of action; I am saying that Americans MUST wake up from their stupor and realize that what is happening to our Country is WRONG!

[kdeputer]

The "legal" authority for much of what's been going on lately is itself being questioned. Scholars such as Glenn Greenwald, Randy Barnett, and Christopher John Sprigman, and legislators such as Gordon Humphrey clearly articulate sound reasons that the government is acting outside its legal authority. The FISC admits that the NSA has acted illegally.

The courts really do need to step in here and do their jobs. When the government breaks its own laws and is not held accountable, where else can we as citizens turn?

You are right. That's why real investigators and true leakers are so important today.

Calling Snowden a traitor is ridiculous and it just shows how brainwashed people are. I could accept someone saying he's complicit in some sort of game which has been reported as some conspiracy by some people. But, many people who posted sound like they're very uninformed. So, the Government can break laws including violations on the Constitution but if someone 'illustrates' this evidence, they're a traitor? At most, he is complicit in some Government type scam (if he is not the principled man he's trying to portray) but traitor, no.

Btw, why would anyone think Microsoft is some sort of 'good' company with any kind of integrity? They've shown their true colours for a long time.

[MoonRise]

Two attributes that are at odds with Politics and Politicians!

+1

[Shimapan]

I'm not the tiniest bit surprised that Microsuck is the same privacy nightmare as Google.
Also, the US becoming more and more of a police state, with Prism and all... This has been a long time in the making already, it's just now that details about it are leaking out, thanks to courageous people like Snowden. If anyone deserves being called a hero, it's him.

[SteveRiley]

Catching up...

You are either drinking too much or too little.

Then I should either stop or start. LOL. Where's my gin tonic?

Everyone is duped by large/global companies, From Apple, M$, Monsanto, IKEA etc.

I'd wager that most Americans wouldn't have thought to include IKEA in this list. I can see that, from your perspective, it's reasonable... But I do love their meatballs and lingonberries!

reading this thread and just gotta say damn i love this forum. everytime we have some topic on here where people would get all hot headed elsewhere on the net here @ KFN we all have a discussion about it and again unlike other places on the net we don't just flame eachother..

Which is precisely why I felt this was the place I could safely air my criticism and disappointment. The ensuing discussion has been wonderful.

The code of an officer in the US Military demands that I will never tell a lie, nor will I tolerate those that do. With great personal grief I see that code violated every day by those still in uniform. Is there no honor anymore?

Most of them know they can get away with little or no punishment. Except when our vindictive Director of National Intelligence and our petty Attorney General decide to target a random high level official: "'My background is in the Navy, and it is good to hang an admiral once in a while as an example to the others,' said Mr. Blair, who left the administration in 2010."

Catch them behind the scenes, or during commercial breaks when they think the camera and mic are off

My colon says that's a fake.

[OldSmoky2]

Fox isn't any more Right, or less Left than the other media. They just have a different shtick to generate revenue.

This, but with a different take, i.e., no one should assume that they're getting anything resembling news by watching TV news networks in the U.S. today. Fox News is to "news" as Twinkies is to "nutrition." It's just pure entertainment packaged to sell ads to their target audience.
That said, interesting discussion. The optimist in me hopes people are really waking up to the threat posed by the increasingly expansive government/corporate intrusion into what should be people's private lives. Whatever you think of him, it was notable that Jimmy Carter said the other day that he thinks Snowden's actions may be beneficial to the U.S. in the long run. That's a pretty remarkable statement coming from a former president. Kind of akin to Eisenhower warning the public about the danger to freedom posed by the military/industrial complex.

[GreyGeek]

Protecting our freedom of speech and right to privacy with whatever means possible has no 'wing' (left or right), just sayin'. :-/

I wish that were true, but you don't see conservatives trying to add infringements to that which "shall not be infringed". A point I forgot to make in my previous post was that there is little basic difference between Fox News and ABC, NBC, CBS or PBS. Many of the contributors and reporters at Fox were working at the other networks before they moved to Fox, and many at the other networks were at Fox before they moved there.

IMO, the REAL problem with politics in America is that the politicians we've elected refuse to honor their oath of office to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic, and that they take that OBLIGATION willingly, without mental reservations or purpose of evasion...." They no longer read the bills they vote for because they've already sold their vote to some corporation or non-profit. The kids graduating out of high school for the last 40 years haven't been taught Civics or civility, and they do not know or understand that we live in a Republic, not a democracy, and that there are three EQUAL branches of government, and that the President is mandated to enforce ALL laws, not cherry-pick the ones he want to enforce. It is certainly not the Executive Branch's right to send teams of agents (DOH CRS units) provocateurs to promote one side of a political issue.

Our freedoms have eroded in direct proportion to our politicians failure to honor their oath of office. At 72, I can remember a time when the 1st, 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th, 11th and 14th Amendments were honored by all police and a majority of politicians. The IRS, EPA, NSA and who knows what other agencies routinely target specific groups, mostly those with conservative sounding words in their names (297 to 7), so that conservative non-profits get held up for almost three years during an election cycle, which prevents them from participating effectively, while liberal groups get their 501c status in a couple months or less. These federal agencies snoop into everyone's email and bank accounts without a warrant, the TSA and VIPR teams stop people without having probably cause and demand to know personal information or business, and usually charge the non-compliant with "obstructing" or "resisting" if they don't immediately "show their papers" or answer questions. Where is Congress in all of this? Enjoying their very light "work" schedule:

their nice pay with full health care benefits (no co-pays or exclusions), their ability to leave a secret "hearings" with wall street managers and immediately take advantage of their "insider trading info" by phoning their own brokers to make stock transactions, something you and I can't do. No wonder their average net worth jumps from half a mil before they were elected to 5 mil after a couple terms, all on only $174K per year. I have a hard time believing that only a couple terms in Congress turns them into savvy investors.

Now, police are striving to become military units, using weapons, armor and tactics that the Army uses in battle, probably because the Feds have. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...780519904.html SWAT teams are now raiding public places where no disturbances are being reported, with guns drawn, shouting instructions and making death threats to "enforce" laws on beer sales? NASA, the EPA and the DHS, to name just a few government agencies, now have SWAT teams! :eek: Who is NASA using SWAT teams against? Little Green Men? Why does the DHS need 1.6 Billion rounds of 9mm and .40 caliber hollow point ammo, thousands of "personal defense weapons" (a.k.a. AR-15s), thousands of armored vehicles (tanks on wheels), armored traffic posts, drones, heavy weapons and Cobra gunships? Why is the DHS advertising for people with "resettlement/Internment" training and experience?

What do they expect to happen sometime in the future? Who do they plan on fighting during the next 15 years?

Just how do you plant to "protect" your freedom of speech and right to privacy against such fire power?

P.S. -- discussions like this are one reason why Kubuntuforums is such a treasure island among sand bars. Post post their opinions and are not met with a barrage of ad homenium attacks. People disagree without being disagreeable. It isn't like this at most other websites and posting opinions on unmoderated sites is becoming a waste of time. If people can't disagree without being disagreeable then what other choice remains? Shooting? God forbid.

[bsniadajewski]

... and they do not know or understand that we live in a Republic, not a democracy, ...

This is one nit I like to pick. We are a republic and a democracy (well, theoretically). Democracies can be either direct (New England town meetings e.g.) or indirect (Congresses/Parliaments/State legislatures). The legislators (should) work on the behalf of the people who elected them to represent them, but, as you say, other competing interests have gone in and F'ed that up.

[GreyGeek]

As Ben Franklin said:
http://www.bartleby.com/73/1593.html

But, to be more precise. the US is a Constitutional Republic (representatives elected by the people, Rule Of Law under the Constitution, of by and for the people), not a Socialist or Islamic Republic.

[Buddlespit]

I guess the upside of all of this, the NSA and prism debacle, is that we've finally found a government office that will listen to us!

[SteveRiley]

I wish that were true, but you don't see conservatives trying to add infringements to that which "shall not be infringed".

Hm. Let's see about that:

* A woman's right to full and complete privacy over her own body

* The right for two (or more) people in a committed relationship to enjoy the full benefits of marriage

* The right to have a public education based on the latest that science has to offer, free of sectarian indoctrination and iron-age fairy tales

* The right to enter a polling place and cast a properly recorded vote without delay or harassment

I think that's good for now.

[GreyGeek]

Hm. Let's see about that:

* A woman's right to full and complete privacy over her own body

I agree that a woman has a right to full and complete privacy over HER OWN body. The body of the unborn child is NOT the body of the mother. Their DNA and blood are different. And, there is no mention of an un-infringable right to kill an unborn baby in the Constitution. We have no difficulty identifying an Eagle egg as being an unborn Eagle and making it against the law to even disturb the nest, to say nothing of destroying the egg, yet we cannot recognize an unborn human as being anything more than the "product of conception"?

Personally, I am against the death penalty, and that includes the death penalty for having the misfortune of being conceived by a person who didn't take necessary precautions to prevent conception. Partial birth abortion, where the baby's head is allowed to exit the vagina and then a pick is inserted into the foramen magnum and the brain is scrambled, is an unjustifiable, abominable act. No medical milady exists that requires the death of a full term baby by such a method. For a society to allow such an act speaks volumes about its character.

* The right for two (or more) people in a committed relationship to enjoy the full benefits of marriage

Ditto for the "infringement", there being no Constitutional statement against "infringinging" marriage. In fact, there is nothing about marriage in the Constitution at all. BTW, I see that you are advocating polygamy ("or more"). Weiner is already practicing that at heart, and the woman who admits to being his wife appears to agree with it. "Marriage" is totally meaningless these days.

Your argument really stems from the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The 14th was added in 1868 to guarantee equality under the law for all races, after the Civil Rights Act of 1866 failed to curb what the Democrats were doing in the South to suppress newly freed Blacks. It also nullified the Dred Scott decision by the Supreme Court, which shows that even the SCOTUS gets it wrong on occasions. For over 100 years no one considered that the 14th Amendment justified what the vast majority of citizens considered, up till recent times, to be abhorrent behavior and even passed laws against such practices. Up until the time the Supreme Court ruled that Gays had the same rights of marriage and property as straights the laws in many states restricted or prohibited them. It still is debatable, just as the Dred Scott decision was. Public opinion is fickle. Things can change. And in our Republic it is not illegal or unconstitutional to push for change. In the long run, we'll get the change we settle for.

* The right to have a public education based on the latest that science has to offer, free of sectarian indoctrination and iron-age fairy tales

There is no Constitutional amendment which requires that "right". Indeed, the 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of (not from) religion and the right to practice it, although that right has been severely infringed in recent decades. Most people who hold to religious views which contradict the "latest that science has to offer" have a constitutional right to do so. The Constitution does not require citizens to accept any particular scientific view. Many citizen object to being forced to pay taxes to support the teachings with which they disagree, like many object to being forced to pay union dues to a union of which they are not a member nor with which they politically agree. Those that can afford to do so home school their children or put them in private schools. Home schooled children generally score higher on achievement exams and college placement test than graduates of public schools. Teaching Evolution in public schools has about the same worth as teaching basket weaving. People can live their entire lives and be highly successful in just about any endeavor without knowing a thing about Evolution, or even misunderstanding it. As far a religion is concerned, Christianity is dying out. While many give lip service to Easter, Christmas, births and deaths, most simply don't care. In England and the EU probably less than 3% attend any religious service regularly. In America I suspect that it is around 10%. Within 50 years Christianity will cease to be a major social or political movement. It will die with those who presently hold to its tenets. Only two things will change that: the rise of Islam and Sharia Law in America, or the landing of an alien spacecraft bearing travelers who express beliefs in a supreme deity.

BTW, indoctrination is a two-way street. Science isn't as "pat" as you seem to think Physics is now in a quandary. The Standard Model has evolved to the point where the only viable description of "physical reality" is the Bane, (String Theory) which implies 11 dimensions and the existence of multiple universes. All in an attempt to explain the accelerated expansion of space and the putative existence of "Dark Matter", which cannot be seen and does not react with the visible physical universe. We have no way of measuring DM nor can we leave this universe and measure others that the theory says exists. Many scientists refuse to accept String Theory. Right now, the big proofs are "appeals to authority", the biggest being Stephen Hawking coming around to an acceptance of Banes. The big draw of Banes is the claim that it eliminates the need of a "prime cause", i.e., God.

Mathematics is in a similar quandry. An interesting book is titled "Mathematics The Loss of Certainty", by Morris Kline.

* The right to enter a polling place and cast a properly recorded vote without delay or harassment

You'll correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the recent episode where the Black Panther's blocked access to voting stations for any but Blacks closely match what you claim conservatives are doing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Bla...imidation_case

And since then the scandals related to abuse of power have increased six-fold, all of it directed at suppressing political activity of those who disagree with the Democrats and Pres. Obama. Should I recount them?

It looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

[kubicle]

I guess one has to be American to rely on a bunch of rich free white men that lived in the 18th century as the best authority on how to run a modern day society.

Why stop there, why not Plato's Utopia?

[claydoh]

I guess one has to be American to rely on a bunch of rich free white men that lived in the 18th century as the best authority on how to run a modern day society.

Why stop there, why not Plato's Utopia?

Well, the real genius those old codgers had was making the constitution, well, a wiki. One that no one will edit or update properly
All the smokescreens and distractions keep us from noticing this while we bicker about things that mostly are state-level issues, not federal ones.

[GreyGeek]

I guess one has to be American to rely on a bunch of rich free white men that lived in the 18th century as the best authority on how to run a modern day society.

Why stop there, why not Plato's Utopia?

Most were not rich and many of those that were didn't remain so. Also, politics then were no different than they are now. I'm reading an interesting book, "Duel With The Devil", an historical account of the politics at the time of Hamilton & Burr, who were co-councils in a murder trial, one which was noted as the longest trial up to that time. It took 3 days! In 250 years nothing has changed. The laws made today in Congress and the Senate, and signed by the President, are done by mainly rich white men, just like it was 250 years ago.