Yet Another evolution article on Slashdot

[bsniadajewski]

He did a very good job, regardless of ideology, of keeping things somewhat peaceful, considering there was some tensions brewing resulting in the 1974 Constitution (a good compromise there). It seemed that only after Milošević (speaking of bad apples) took over did things really start unravelling. I'm getting it from the Wikipedia article on Yugoslavia, looking at its more recent history (just before the breakup.)

Integration works best if all parts [in this case all the various ethnicities] are respected and treated equally.

[rms]

Interesting fact, Tito was Croat-Slovene.

Looking from this perspective, he's nationality didn't matter. He managed to unite us at least around certain topics and life was better than, in some ways, than it is now when we're wide apart. Integration is always much better than disintegration. So, I look with sympathy on EU although I don't know if it will last long considering present economic issues.

[bsniadajewski]

It sounds like you were referring to the Nazi-coollaborating Ustaši. IT goes to show you it's always the bad apple(s) that somewqhat ruin it for the whole group.

Interesting fact, Tito was Croat-Slovene.

[rms]

So ... no bitterness towards the other fromer Yugo slav republics (even after the hell that was Bosnia, for all factions)?

None. I see it personally as a retribution for WWII. They were all collaborating with the nazis and gave us hell. So, our turn came... now we are even.

[SteveRiley]

One might also remember that extreme liberalism(communism)

I would quibble with the assertion that "extreme liberalism" = communism, because there is actually very little liberty in such places as the examples you cite.

A more general assertion is that violence is a necessary and sufficient tool for any restrictive regime to obtain and maintain power.

[woodsmoke]

Something that comes to mind are a few lines from the works of Cyril Scott.

woodsmoke

[bsniadajewski]

Anything, when taken to extremes, can and will lead to violence. (I'm not going to Godwin this thread though.)

@rms it may (or may not be) wise in all situations, but it is something to work towards (turn the other cheek , ect.)

So ... no bitterness towards the other fromer Yugo slav republics (even after the hell that was Bosnia, for all factions)?

[woodsmoke]

SR wrote:

Religion and violence always appear to need each other, no?

One might also remember that extreme liberalism(communism) and violence go hand in hand also:

(enumeration of deaths)
65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."

The following wikipedia source also, to be fair and balanced, provides argument against SOME of the numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bla...k_of_Communism

And the article on the steps to Marxism/Communism at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

woodsmoke

[rms]

@rms He never said loving your enemy is going to be easy. If it were; we would be in this predicament in the first place.

Quite so, only don't forget, he was telling that to the apostles i.e. special people(12 of them only) who could actually put His teaching to practice in the real world but with great difficulty. And even they sometimes failed(who renounced Him?). And to the mob he always talked in parables "that seeing they may not see and hearing not understand". I always found this intriguing... so many times repeated and nobody pays any attention to it.

I only mean to say that following anything(even Christian faith) to the teeth in extreme situations is not wise and even impossible. Particularly if the other side has no scruples of any kind towards you.

However, I'm not identified with the predicament and not bitter at heart. It's the politics, always drawing out what is worst in a person.

[bsniadajewski]

@rms He never said loving your enemy is going to be easy. If it were; we would be in this predicament in the first place.

(DOn't you just hate it when all day you think of something to say, (er write) but when you gat the chance to say it, it escapes ya?)>

@SR One could also say that religion (or lack thereof) has been (ab)used by many a man for their own twisted ends. It's all in how you interpret the scriptures (I generally would put more weight on the NT since it represents a new "covenant" with His people(s?). Interpretting it one way (taking the first few charters of Genesis as literal, e. g.) will cause you trouble in one way; another inerpretation will cause problems in another.

[SteveRiley]

Religion and violence always appear to need each other, no? Consider, for example, the entire Old Testament. The various sacred texts make for great reading as literature, but as a basis for constructing a system of morals that lack inclusions/exclusions, they all fail spectacularly.

[rms]

Oooh, I've been teased before during my elementary school days (back in the 80's), but it never about my ethnic background. That was mainly about my looks and a huge overbite I had until it got fixed when I was in (Catholic) high school. As to the name-calling (as I call it), I'm the feelings are mutual, but that doesn'e excuse it for either of you. Jesus [assuming you are (Orthodox) Christian] asks us t olove love our neighbors, and the Albanians, Croats, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are your

BTW, I remember Jesus also said "love your enemy", (if you get where I'm going here).

(know that Jesus is also important to Muslims as they consider him a great prophet, just not devine as we Christians mostly believe.)

Eh, imagine that, you've been teased in the elementary school, some trouble! I'm speaking about much graver things like what happened in Macedonia quite recently. This was their long standing tactics in Serbia, many Serbs got killed that way. And when they got a response they deserve, could not take their porridge like men but started whining and lobbying with their drug money about how they're molested and persecuted other sh*t you've been exposed on CNN because America has an interest here(but not a noble one I assure you).

So, in theory, it's nice and moral to love everyone but if they start shooting at you because you're certain religion or nationality than it's plain stupid. Just remember 9/11 and what it was like for you. Your country crushed 2 countries causing death and terror to many thousands of people there over two buildings. What if random killings where going on for years in America inspired by desire to take part of your country? Would you be talking about love of God?

[bsniadajewski]

Oooh, I've been teased before during my elementary school days (back in the 80's), but it never about my ethnic background. That was mainly about my looks and a huge overbite I had until it got fixed when I was in (Catholic) high school. As to the name-calling (as I call it), I'm the feelings are mutual, but that doesn'e excuse it for either of you. Jesus [assuming you are (Orthodox) Christian] asks us t olove love our neighbors, and the Albanians, Croats, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are your

BTW, I remember Jesus also said "love your enemy", (if you get where I'm going here).

(know that Jesus is also important to Muslims as they consider him a great prophet, just not devine as we Christians mostly believe.)

[rms]

I don't mince words either, but no group deserves such derogatory names. Remember the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) applies to all people(s). I'm of Polish descent (5th generation, fron what was West Prussia in the German-held portion), I wouldn't like it if people called us "Pollocks" out of such spite.
Ain't it funny that such terms are derived from the language of the people being dissed. [Albanians are Shqiptarët (sing Shqiptar), Poles are Polacy (sing. Polak)]?

You are an unspoilt soul who hasn't been treated real bad yet (and I hope that you'll never be) so cannot understand spite or that it's not without it's cause. Do you think they are using better words when talking about us(not that it matters anything to us what they say)?

I also remember "eye for an eye(or both if one is really pissed )".

[bsniadajewski]

I don't mince words either, but no group deserves such derogatory names. Remember the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) applies to all people(s). I'm of Polish descent (5th generation, fron what was West Prussia in the German-held portion), I wouldn't like it if people called us "Pollocks" out of such spite.
Ain't it funny that such terms are derived from the language of the people being dissed. [Albanians are Shqiptarët (sing Shqiptar), Poles are Polacy (sing. Polak)]?