Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

[Fintan]

This says it all for me:
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...aching-poor-/1

My standpoint is obvious.

What is yours?

[toad]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Hehe...

[Ole Juul]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Separation of church and state should definitely go on the wish list.

[dibl]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Good article. To be fair, in college it was a couple of weeks of classes in a 200- or 300-level biology course, to actually get the nuts and bolts of evolution (gene pools, frequencies, mutations, trajectories, examples, yada yada yada). I think sometimes people are saying "teach" but they actually mean "tell". Teaching is not telling -- teaching takes time and feedback. It certainly could be taught to high school students in the junior or senior year, as part of their science curriculum.

[vinnywright]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Dont be ridiculous..........every one knows it was Odin that made us.........dont thay?

The three bothers Odin, Vili and Ve were strolling together on a beach. As they were walking they found two nice looking logs. One seemed to be from the Ash tree and the other seemed to come from an Elm tree.



Odin blew the gift of life and spirit into the logs.


From Vili they received movement, mind and intelligence.

Ve gave them shape, speech, feelings and the five senses.



The first two humans had been created.

The man was given the name Ask. He had been made out of wood from an Ash tree.

The woman was given the name Embla. She had been made from the wood of an Elm tree.



The Aesir decided the humans was to reside in a place they named Midgard. The Aesir named their own territory Asgard. It was to be just about impossible for humans to wander through to Asgard, the home of the gods.

The Aesir made a colorful bridge connecting the two worlds. They named this bridge Bifrost. The humans often referred to Bifrost as the rainbow.

not that much harder to believe than the standard creationism

VINNY

[rfakhrai]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Creation tales from other countries are very lovely to read, especially the Nordic tradition.

That said, my field (geology) can provide plenty of evidence contrary to creationism and sometimes it's a little difficult to believe that 13% of biology teachers in the U.S. support this stuff.

[vinnywright]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Creation tales from other countries are very lovely to read, especially the Nordic tradition.

That said, my field (geology) can provide plenty of evidence contrary to creationism and sometimes it's a little difficult to believe that 13% of biology teachers in the U.S. support this stuff.

I totally agree with you ....theirs to much evidence for evolution to discount it.

and it's sad that teachers don't stick to scientific evidence (especially in a filed like biology) and lean toward a religious belief.

after all perhaps that's ( evolution ) how God,God's,Goddess designed it .........and a day to God is millions of years ?

VINNY

[Snowhog]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Creationism is not science.
Science is not based on faith.

Here in the United States, as codified in our Constitution's Bill of Rights, the First Amendment says:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In the United States, our schools (other than the 'private' ones) are supported by tax dollars. They are supposed to be places of educational learning; where the 'arts and sciences' are taught. Social Studies came in decades ago, and some (myself included) think that was the begining of the changes incorporated into public education that has continued to bring down our educational ranking when compared to the rest of the World.

Faith belongs 'within' the individual, and supported, nurtured, and communally expressed in Churches, not public schools. The insistance that Creationism be included in public education is a blatent attempt by the religious right 'extremists' to circumvent the First Amendment. Our Founding Fathers believed in their Faith, and the express right - the freedom - of individuals to pursue their religion and their faith. But the support of any religious faith 'by the Government' was to be excluded from the role of Government. Anyone remember when the King of England usurped the Church, and placed the King's authority over that of the Pope?

[GreyGeek]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

I'm all for separation of Church and State. Unfortunately, the State is not.

The Congress hypocritically begins each session with prayer. In times past it used to be just Christian prayer but now its mostly ministers of "diverse" religious groups.

And, a "confusion" has arisen about who is Congress and what their powers are.

A student is expelled from school for refusing the bus driver's command to stop reading her Bible while riding a school bus to school because, according to some, her exercising her 1st Amendment rights by reading her Bible is the same as the State establishing a State religion. Another student, when invited to write a theme paper on any topic, chose to write one about his belief in God and Jesus Christ. He was expelled. Although he cannot speak or write (no First Amendment rights) in school about HIS faith he is forced to attend classes AND participate in roll-playing themes on Islamic, Jewish, Indian and even Wiccan (witchcraft!) religious rites.

The First Amendment states that CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAWS .... Christians cannot exercise their First Amendment Rights because in doing so some people become confused about which group of people is Congress and can pass laws: the REAL Congress setting in Washington, or a group of people on some school board in some community some place. So, while bills submitted by a representative or senator to the elected body setting in the physical House or Senate and that bill must pass through hearings, committees, and be voted upon more than once and then passed to the other body where it is again processed before being voted up or down. If, after passing through all of that the bill becomes law because BOTH the House and the Senate, setting in Washington, finally pass the bill AND the POTUS signs it. But, according to the First Amendment, NO bill can be put forward which creates a "State" religion, i.e., one which the State recognizes, as apposed to all others, and supports by taxes or special laws. But, all of that process appears to be unnecessary because any school board anywhere can usurp the entire Congressional legislative process by having a dozen or so board members vote to outlaw First Amendment rights which has been part of our history for nearly all of its 200+ years.

So, if First Amendment rights are revoked for some people then in all fairness they should be revoked for all. After all, doesn't equality before the law mean that the government should treat citizens equally?

But, it's not only about religion, it is also about patriotism, and even political speech. The insanity continues:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...ble_at_recess/
http://www.blog.churchwebstop.com/?p=180
http://washingtonexaminer.com/op-eds...ction-policies
http://snorphty.blogspot.com/2009/07...n-t-shirt.html
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=21154
http://redlaws.com/2010/10/22/virgin...ulum-learning/
http://faithandthelaw.wordpress.com/...istian-pavers/
http://www.towleroad.com/2009/11/ala...ding-prom.html
http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2009/may/...om-g-ar-13277/
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...l_forbids.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkR4wmAAhAg

Just google "schools forbid" and browse the insanity.

[woodsmoke]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

I would offer my small experience in this matter having taught biology, end evoution for 36 years and having done recombinant DNA work at a major university for three years and haveing had my seventh grade life science students and my biology do recombinant DNA work and DNA sequencing using both the GEL electrophoresis systems and P.A.G.E. system. I've also obtained images of DNA using a Scanning Tunneling Microscope which was a feat not easily obtained....and of little worth since an AFM does a much better job!

The big gorilla in the room that the educationists and evolution advocates do not want to discuss is very simple.

And that big gorilla is that to ALL of the people that have not actually DONE evolution experiments....."evolution" is a "belief system" not a "working theory".....

They can SAY it is a working theory or whatever they want but they have not DONE the experiments.

I, personally, have participated in "evolution experiments". I have spliced genes and made new organisms.

If you don't believe that I can't really prove it.

However, be that as it may....I, personally can "accept evolution as a working theory".

ALL other scientists, ALL laymen, EVERYONE that is not a practicing evolutionary scientist has to "believe" in evolution.

Now...yes......the scientists all paper over this "word" with the "word" "accept" or the "word" "support" or anything they want, but the simple fact of the matter is that...

Have you SEEN me do evolution experiments? Ummmm no.........you have to take, "on faith" that I have, indeed done what I said I have done.

Thus.... every single student in an industrialized society that reads biology books has to take evolution as a belief system.

Let me posit the following:

a) an old man gets up in front of a bunch of people seated on wooden benches and reads from a thick book telling the people what to believe.

Am I describing an old church man, standing before a congregation seated in pews and reading from a Bible?
Am I describing an old college prof., standing before a freshman class and reading from a biology book in the classic old dissection octagon?

THE...............FORM.........of the statement is the same......

Almost all students, 99.9999999% has not, and will not do "experiments" in evolution, at the elementary, high school and college level.

The students will READ about evolution READ about experiments, watch VIDEOS about evolution, hear ADULTS talk on and on and on about evolution....

Just as the student "believes" that Hannible had elephants in his army the student also "believes" that the word evolution in a book or on a video or said by a teacher is something that may........or may not..........be true...

For all of these people it is a belief system just like believing that Antarctica is where the maps show a blotch of white is.

How many of the students have actually BEEN to Antarctica and KNOW that it is there?

If this one simple fact was ever actually admitted by the evolutionist preachers, by the evolutionist writers, by the SCIENTISTS themselves then .........

possibly we could get beyond this.

When one realizes that evolution, at the elementary, high school, college levels,

in the "world at large"....

for the english, history, sociology, etc. professors......

all of the people who have NEVER done an "evolution experiment" or "spliced genes"....

is a belief system then hey .........

guess what....?

You no longer need to "convince anybody".

There is an old saying............you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink....

Once the idea that to MOST of the people that you are teaching evolution to will NEVER do ANY science work...then you all of a sudden have opened up to you the possibility of....

Instead of forcing a kid to REGURGITATE on a test that they somehow "accept" the theory of evolution.....

you can then just "present the information" and move on.....

and the horse who wants to drink.....the kid who has a mind that is amenable to discussion....

will drink of the font of knowledge because he or she was not FORCED to drink.

And the others...........would never have accepted it anyway.....

The great advantage of this situation is that the kid who actively does not WANT to believe evolution is not....

SO DAM@#$ TURNED OFF BY THE WHOLE RANT...of "believe this you idiot" or you are just a stupid Christian...

that hey...........maybe..........maybe.............the y might.........a few years later.......read an article.......and actually remember the stuff from class and think about it....

woah...........what a thought.........remember a pleasurable discussion and THINK about it! What a concept!!

But no..........we in our pride........just as the Christian or the Muslim must FORCE their belief system on someone.....the evolutionist has to do the same.....

it makes them feel good...........I....NEED to eddikate those stupid people!!

Using the above mentioned method............i have actually had people go into biology from a conservative, Christian background....and guess what?

They really, accept....the THEORY of evolution as a THEORY........instead of a belief system....

it is..........after all......called........the THEORY of evolution.........not the LAW of evolution.........

If we ever just got beyond all this....maybe we could concentrate on "education" instead of "argumentation" and then maybe evolution could be put into its context and DISCUSSED instead of being forced down the throats of most people because they are just to STUPID to understand what the enlightened evolutionist...

has never done an experiment on.....

Just my thoughts!!

woodTHIS WAS WAY TOO MUCH THINKING ON MY PART! smoke

[lcorken]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

I may not believe what you say, but I will try harder if you say it in fewer words.
You guys talk too much! I can't read all that crap! Now ya gotta hear what I have to say!

Why can't they teach both sides and let students decide for themselves?

Maybe God created earth and all life using evolution?

Maybe the big bang was God blowing his own mind?

I believe in God, but I think he is up in heaven ether laughing hysterically or shaking his head in disgust.

I am currently reading a history book that refers to "The modern Myth"(the big bang and all). Why Myth?
Because it can't be proven ether way. Sounds reasonable but who knows? Two attorneys could argue and the biggest BS artist would win. What does that prove?

The first history book I have been able to stomach. Starts with big bang "Myth".
"Maps of time. An Introduction to Big history. by David Christian."
Good book.
Ken.

[rfakhrai]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Why can't they teach both sides and let students decide for themselves?

I'm not sure I can stomach what you're implying here. Teach something that isn't science or science-related in a science classroom and let the impressionable pre-teen youth decide what's best? What do they know about scientific research, dedication, and interpreting the collected data? This just doesn't work. I'm sorry.

Why Myth?
Because it can't be proven ether way.

No, we call that an untested theory. And on the topic of the big bang theory, seismic data and thermodynamic laws suggest that the Earth was a great hot mass that's been cooling off as the heavier elements sink toward the center. To me, this kind of thing is just irrefutable. But I'll stop there. I don't want to test your attention span; it's only our nation's children at stake here.

[Ole Juul]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Why can't they teach both sides and let students decide for themselves?

Quite simply because the "two sides" are not of the same coin. There is no logical connection between the two.

[drooghead]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

"Why can't they teach both sides and let students decide for themselves?"

We can't because there aren't just two sides. You're forgetting the tooth fairy, santa claus, unicorns, all the various Indian gods, the great spaghetti monster, the celestial teapot, all of which have equal evidentiary weight. There would be no time left to teach anything that is backed by actual evidence. The superstition of God is not an alternate theory that carries equal weight as evolution. You have to lump the belief of a god, any god, with the countless other superstitious beliefs.

[lcorken]

Re: Provocation: Now I know why the USA cannot be competitve!

Earth was a great hot mass that's been cooling off as the heavier elements sink toward the center. To me, this kind of thing is just irrefutable.

This sounds reasonable to me, but who is to say that it was random chance or a tool of God? I don't know. There are so many theories that change over time that I can't accept any as absolute, including religious teachings. They are all beleavable but suspect to me. Look at the nutrition and diet wars.

I see these things as a May or May Not be situation. And that's all OK. What should we teach in school? I just don't feel qualified to say. My opinion is just as suspect as any.
Ken.