My Big Arch Move

[IgnorantGuru]

Re: My Big Arch Move

But I do find it objectionable to pull things out of a hat and portraying them as facts (like "Many of these have poor security histories")... that's what conspiracy theorists do.

Well this is why I said I'm not trying to prove anything. But if you're interested, you can read up on them yourself and see what is in their history regarding security, and what installing them may introduce even in their current versions. Phonon/pulseaudio is a good example to start with - they're not as innocuous as you might think. I admit I was just providing a heads-up, not a full-blown analysis. I certainly didn't like what I read when I researched them. Not one bit. But don't ask me for references - I didn't take notes aside from mental ones. Draw your own conclusions - I'm not asking you to take mine as fact.

Here's a little history for you
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/USN-804-1

"A local attacker could exploit this to gain root privileges. "

Gee, reminds me of Adobe's daily "could execute arbitrary code" bugs. No, I'm not saying one bug is conclusive, but it's not just that one.

Speaking of bugs (though not a security one)...

And this morning my PCManFM mod is not showing the Open With... right-click submenu, even after a reboot.

Turns out I left in a diagnostic return that caused the function to exit before creating the menu. Doh! I've corrected it.

[IgnorantGuru]

Re: My Big Arch Move

Some of these libraries have daemons associated with them to access the functionality (phonon is just a multimedia layer though), most of the daemons (like strigi and virtuoso) can be disabled (and even uninstalled) if the functionality they provide is not desired. I have no need for strigi myself (and don't have the daemon installed).

Also - doesn't matter - nepomuk is still indexing - reading all your files and consuming your RAM and CPU. Strigi is just a front-end. When I upgraded kdelibs to 4.4 on Arch, nepomuk started indexing my entire system. I couldn't stop it short of deleting its executable. And I didn't even have Strigi installed!

[GreyGeek]

Re: My Big Arch Move

I certainly agree with what Dibl wrote and I, too, appreciate your contributions to this forum. After all, Linux IS about choice, for what ever reason. I am thankful to all the FOSS contributors, ESPECIALLY those who work tirelessly, and sometimes despite discouragement and personal attacks, on distros like Kubuntu or Arch. That sentiment goes also for KDE, GNOME and all the other DEs. There is a place for ALL of them, and ALL of them should be encouraged.

Archers tends to be bold and thus get themselves in deeper trouble.

That was my observation. Many of the problems seemed to arise from technical mis-manipulations, which required more than common technical knowledge (a Dible or Snowhog or Rog131 type knowledge), which led me to consider Arch a distro for more technically talented people. One which I would have probably enjoyed 10 years ago (I am not being derogatory). In fact, my first impression was that I had re-entered the world of Red Hat 5.0, compiling kernels, sound drivers, video drivers, manually modifying config files, and LOTS of experimentation to get it all to work together. Working with Red Hat 5.0 was a LOT of fun and taught me a lot about the basic Linux command structure and architecture.

However, RH 5.0 wasn't conducive to persuading others to adopt Linux. In fact, it was counter productive. Only other geeks like myself were interested. SuSE 5.3 began to change all of that with its YAST, and later the graphical YAST2 system administration toolset, running KDE 1.0 as the DE. Non-technical people could, and where I worked DID, run SuSE/KDE1.0 as easily as they ran Win95. That was important. I spent 35 of my 40 years programming on a Windows environment using proprietary tools. I believe that even proprietary tools have a place in the Linux environment, as long as their use is a personal choice and not something stealthy inserted by deception, like .NET (MONO), or jammed down users throats by greedy corporations devoid of ethics. During that time in the Windows environment I had to coach hundreds of people with NO computer background in the use of Windows, as easy as that DE is to use. Some, even after 15 years of using Windows, still cannot distinguish between the OS, the desktop, Windows Exporer or Internet Explorer. They see no relationship of functions common to many applications (such as File --> Quit being a menu option on every application they run, etc...) When trained to do a task they have to have a set of steps pasted on their cube wall in easy view so they can follow all the steps necessary to start an application and enter it's edit mode so they can do their data entry or editing. When they eat and drink at their desk their environment becomes filthy, their keyboard and mouse become clogged with grease, chocolate, dried sugar water, salt and sugar scum, and all the bacteria and mold that environment encourages. Their mouse or keyboard begins malfunctioning. They see no relationship between that malfunction and the dirt on their equipment. They tell their supervisor that "the program is malfunctioning again". I learned very quickly that when you get a problem like that the first step is to call the supervisor over and explain why "the program" malfunctioned. You do NOT merely clean off or replace their equipment and leave the impression that the problem was your code. In many cases Kubuntu distro and KDE developers are impugned in the same way. Users fail to check BOTH the downloaded ISO and the burned CD before they attempt to install it. They fail to check, or ask others, about the compatibility of their hardware with Linux. They fail to check the reliability of their RAM, their CDROM, their FIRMWARE, etc. In other words, they run with a "dirty" machine. When things don't work it's the fault of the distro or the DE. That's why, on this forum, the number one solution is probably checking the hardware, the ISO and the burn. On the Arch forum the problems are much deeper and technically oriented.

IF Linux users want Linux to succeed with the masses of computer illiterates the Linux DE has to be even MORE functional and powerful than the most commonly used Windows DE. That's what KDE4 is, and that is why I like it. I enjoyed Arch-type distros 10 years ago, but now my goal is to get as many Windows users converted to Linux as I can. While GNOME is an excellent desktop it is too different from how Windows behaves, which steepens the learning curve and raises the barrier to adoption for most Windows users. That is not to say that KDE4 is copying Windows ... actually, it has been shown that the opposite is the case. That's how poweful KDE4 has become. KDE4 give the Windows immigrant an opportunity to slide into Linux by keeping the learning barrier as low as possible. That's another reason why I like it. And, as an experienced user, it has DE power and applications that makes my tasks drop dead easy. I just loaded SAGE last night. I can use the "notebook()" function to fire up a browser interface on the localhost:8000 port, or I can use Cantor, the KDE4 front end to SAGE. Cantor, IMO, is much better. KDEnive, K3b, krecordmydesktop, Kmail and a HOST of other Qt4 based applications make KDE the DE of choice for those who don't want to leap the technical barriers.

Yesterday, my most dependent Linux user, who lives 1,500 miles away, called me to say he had a problem with the browser ... he could see only part of my home page, which he uses as a base. I asked him to start Skype (rather, I talked him through how to start it), and then how to show his entire screen. Sure enough, FireFox was showing only half my home page. "Move your mouse to the upper right corner of FireFox", I asked. "No, that's the cashew of the desktop. We want the upper right corner of the FireFox windows. See that middle round button, with the 'top hat' on it? Click it with the left mouse button ..... no, not that button, the middle button .... no, not that button -- we don't want to close FF, the middle button... yes, that's the one. click it"

FireFox jumped to full screen and he was a happy camper again. I had set him up with Jaunty. I noticed a gear in the system tray. It was a notification for a full system upgrade to Karmic. I told him to click on that upgrade link and do the upgrade. I watched as it began. By now it was approaching midnight and I told him to let it run over night. The next morning we connected with Skype again and I saw that the installation had stopped early in the process to ask a question. We answered the question and the upgrade continued. I hooked up again two hours later and saw his screen had no upgrade dialog and no gear in system tray. Just an orange box. Obviously he had not rebooted. "I don't see anything different" he said. "That's because you haven't rebooted as you were requested before you closed the upgrade dialog." "Oh.". He rebooted and up came KDE 4.3.5. Using Skype to watch his entire screen I easily guided him through installing widgets, wallpapers, slide shows, icons in the panel, and system tray, etc... In short order he was running the second most powerful desktop on the planet. Essential no problems were encountered. In a couple months I will guide him through the upgrade to the most powerful desktop on the planet, KDE 4.4.

[kubicle]

Re: My Big Arch Move

Some of these libraries have daemons associated with them to access the functionality (phonon is just a multimedia layer though), most of the daemons (like strigi and virtuoso) can be disabled (and even uninstalled) if the functionality they provide is not desired. I have no need for strigi myself (and don't have the daemon installed).

Also - doesn't matter - nepomuk is still indexing - reading all your files and consuming your RAM and CPU.

No, it's not. Indexing can easily be disabled via systemsettings...in addition, only the first indexing (database creation) is really resource intensive (similar to the creation of 'locate' database).

Draw your own conclusions - I'm not asking you to take mine as fact.

That is of course the best anyone can do

Here's a little history for you
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/USN-804-1

"A local attacker could exploit this to gain root privileges. "

Pulseaudio has nothing to do with KDE (or phonon), and to my knowledge is not even installed on kubuntu by default. In defense of pulseaudio (which I don't use), I've rarely come across any software that didn't ever have bugs that had minor security implications. I say minor because *local* exploits are not vulnerabilities that normal users should be overly concerned about. A local attacker can always gain root privileges on a system, even without any exploits.

[IgnorantGuru]

Re: My Big Arch Move

I certainly agree with what Dibl wrote and I, too, appreciate your contributions to this forum. After all, Linux IS about choice, for what ever reason. I am thankful to all the FOSS contributors, ESPECIALLY those who work tirelessly, and sometimes despite discouragement and personal attacks, on distros like Kubuntu or Arch. That sentiment goes also for KDE, GNOME and all the other DEs. There is a place for ALL of them, and ALL of them should be encouraged.

And I'll add that goes for people like yourself who contribute so much effort to helping people on the forums!

Archers tends to be bold and thus get themselves in deeper trouble.

That was my observation. Many of the problems seemed to arise from technical mis-manipulations, which required more than common technical knowledge (a Dible or Snowhog or Rog131 type knowledge), which led me to consider Arch a distro for more technically talented people.

It's enjoyed by such people. But if you just install the packages and don't monkey around unnecessarily, it's quite stable. The packagers do a good job. You do need to get a little under the hood now and then because software updates will sometimes require config file or other changes, perhaps in how they interact with other software. But truthfully I had to do this with Ubuntu too now and then.

Re dirty mouse balls... I was SO happy when they invented optical mice! Today's kids can't appreciate what this means.

SuSE 5.3 began to change all of that with its YAST, and later the graphical YAST2 system administration toolset

I tried Linux severals times and always decided it was too much of a pain! I didn't want to work that hard. Finally I tried SUSE and it was acceptable. YAST was terrible compared to apt-get, but at least it was a start. Of course when SUSE shook hands with Microsoft, that's when I moved to Kubuntu.

I know what you mean about UI standardization, but frankly KDE is almost as much of a nightmare for new users. What new users need is a simple clean interface without a lot of bells and whistles, sort of like the early netbooks. Click here for web. Click here for email. People get confused when there are too many things on the screen at once. So I don't agree that KDE is great for that purpose. It may be easier for people who are trained on Windows, but that's not saying much!

Rather than trying to keep ex-Windows users happy, I would have liked to see KDE do some really innovative yet simple things with version 4. Instead they just went for the Windows clone. All I can say is Yuck.

I've actually been enjoying getting further away from UI standardization and trying apps and WMs that do things truly differently. It's fun to experience a bit of creative variation. I find that lacking in KDE, no matter how good for corporate manhours it may be. And that's why I like Arch too - it is a customizer's dream. Gets along well with lots of different software without modding it, as opposed to the Ubuntu approach of modding things to make it 'Ubuntu-compliant'. I like to see how the original authors intended their software to work. And modding things often introduces bugs.

I had set him up with Jaunty. I noticed a gear in the system tray. It was a notification for a full system upgrade to Karmic. I told him to click on that upgrade link and do the upgrade.

You ARE a brave soul. I wouldn't touch an Ubuntu upgrade without doing a partition backup first after the experiences I've had. You could just as easily have been flying out there to help him convert his doorstop back into a computer.

But I will say that to an extent Ubuntu does streamline things. I think they are getting off their strengths though, and are getting over-complicated, with lots of breakages. Suddenly changing to upstart in the middle of the Karmic beta process is an example of how they're trying to be both stable and daring, and just making a mess in the process. Even for newbies there are probably better distros out there now - maybe puppy. I really haven't looked so I don't know, but I don't trust Ubuntu to be as non-breaking with updates as it used to be. Its still less breaking than Arch - but that's because it holds versions back while Arch is always bleeding edge latest releases of everything.

I think a person like yourself would definitely appreciate Arch - it's not the manual days of Linux. It's actually quite slick. You should try out their KDE (or kdemod) implementation and see how it compares. Give us a report.

[IgnorantGuru]

Re: My Big Arch Move

Pulseaudio has nothing to do with KDE (or phonon), and to my knowledge is not even installed on kubuntu by default.

Pulseaudio has more to do with Ubuntu's (disasterous) choices than KDE. It's certainly installed - I know because I spent hours trying to remove it from Kubuntu Karmic.

As someone here said...
'That "Seriously...." means that it will be impossible to remove PulseAudio from any sort of Ubuntu in the near future. They are seriously building a kind of Berlin Wall to prevent a massive escape from PulseAudio. It is a trap, my friends.'
http://www.ubuntumini.com/2009/09/fi...ms-remove.html

[kubicle]

Re: My Big Arch Move

Pulseaudio has nothing to do with KDE (or phonon), and to my knowledge is not even installed on kubuntu by default.

Pulseaudio has more to do with Ubuntu's (disasterous) choices than KDE. It's certainly installed - I know because I spent hours trying to remove it from Kubuntu Karmic.

As someone here said...
'That "Seriously...." means that it will be impossible to remove PulseAudio from any sort of Ubuntu in the near future. They are seriously building a kind of Berlin Wall to prevent a massive escape from PulseAudio. It is a trap, my friends.'
http://www.ubuntumini.com/2009/09/fi...ms-remove.html

Well, pulseaudio is not installed by default on kubuntu lucid (10.04). But now that you mentioned it, I seem to recall there was something in karmic that pulled in pulseaudio by default...can't remember if that happened only on fresh installs or upgrades, or both.

[IgnorantGuru]

Re: My Big Arch Move

Well, pulseaudio is not installed by default on kubuntu lucid (10.04). But now that you mentioned it, I seem to recall there was something in karmic that pulled in pulseaudio by default...can't remember if that happened only on fresh installs or upgrades, or both.

That's encouraging - I'm starting to fall out of date with what's going on in (K)Ubuntu so I probably shouldn't talk about it. I'll probably never try Lucid. I'm going to leave the Kubuntu machine I maintain on Karmic until the security updates run out or I decide to put Arch on it. I don't invest a lot of time in that machine.

I find it hard to believe they removed pulse - they seemed so determined to ram it down everyone's throats. If so, that's good news for K/Ubuntu users.

[IgnorantGuru]

Re: My Big Arch Move

Anyway thanks to everyone for discussing this in an open-minded way. I know it's not easy to discuss criticism of your current distro/desktop, especially when you're not itching for change. On most forums this would have degraded to flame war long ago. That's an example of why I think highly of this forum and its members.

[Telengard]

Re: My Big Arch Move

Rather than trying to keep ex-Windows users happy, I would have liked to see KDE do some really innovative yet simple things with version 4. Instead they just went for the Windows clone. All I can say is Yuck.

I'm sorry Iguru, but I could not disagree more. I don't understand where you get the idea that KDE4 is cloned from Windows. In fact it seems to me that exactly the opposite happened.

And as for innovation I think maybe you are missing something. KDE4 has created an entirely new way to use the desktop, and I think it is the most sensible evolution possible. Instead of having a desktop cluttered with objects (icons in Windows) we have customizable containers which provide a logically organized view of objects and functions. Furthermore, the way KDE4 uses transparency actually adds to the functionality of the desktop instead of just making it prettier to look at.

IMHO KDE hasn't gotten bloated, and if anything it has gotten more functional than ever. IMHO KDE is leading the evolution of the desktop paradigm, not following Windows or Apple or anyone else. Yes all the added power and functionality comes with some frilly things of dubious value, but you will always have some unnecessary or unneeded options when you choose such a featureful desktop.

Yes KDE4 requires significantly more horsepower than KDE3, but that is natural and to be expected. Even the most experienced Linux desktop users want the desktop to grow and become more functional, not less. The whole idea of programming is to create software which relieves as much of the workload as possible from the user. Computing power increases in new machines all the time to compensate for the higher demands anyway.

I am proud to belong to a community which includes individuals such as yourself who are bold enough to ask these questions. I just think that your condemnation of KDE is a little too harsh, and frankly I don't think it is completely justified.

[GreyGeek]

Re: My Big Arch Move

...
Re dirty mouse balls... I was SO happy when they invented optical mice! Today's kids can't appreciate what this means.

Optical mice were coming in at work as I retired. Peanut, cookie and candy crumbs seemed by magic to work their way under the mouse buttons, hindering or even preventing their clicking.

I tried Linux severals times and always decided it was too much of a pain! I didn't want to work that hard. Finally I tried SUSE and it was acceptable. YAST was terrible compared to apt-get, but at least it was a start. Of course when SUSE shook hands with Microsoft, that's when I moved to Kubuntu.

The problems working with RPM packaging in RH were greatly alleviated by YAST and the SuSE repositories, but dependency hell was a frequent problem on RH and when installing alien RPMs on SuSE or other RPM based distros.

I've actually been enjoying getting further away from UI standardization and trying apps and WMs that do things truly differently. It's fun to experience a bit of creative variation. ...

Yesterday, with the fellow living 1,500 miles away, when KDE 4.3.5 came up Skype couldn't turn on the webcam, even though sound worked great. I had him open a konsole and use apt-get to install Cheese. It seems that Cheese contains some libraries that other video apps lack, and after he opened up Cheese his webcam light came on and he saw himself on the screen. He restarted Skype and I saw his face on my screen! Then I asked him to close cheese, which he had left open. I said, "File --> Quit, remember?" At that instant I noticed that instead of "File" for a menu option the author of Cheese changed it to "Cheese". I hold that deviation from UI standardization in such basic fundamentals as how a window or dialog should be closed should ALWAYS be honored by a programmer.

I had set him up with Jaunty. I noticed a gear in the system tray. It was a notification for a full system upgrade to Karmic. I told him to click on that upgrade link and do the upgrade.

You ARE a brave soul. I wouldn't touch an Ubuntu upgrade without doing a partition backup first after the experiences I've had. You could just as easily have been flying out there to help him convert his doorstop back into a computer.

I'm not that bold! As an old, but not bold, pilot I would have loved to had the excuse to fly out there to help him. 8) BUT, before I guided him in his installation of Jaunty, I made sure than his hardware was compatible with Kubuntu, and that the CDROM I sent him was valid. After he booted it, but before he ran the LiveCD mode, I had him run the CD test to make sure it hadn't been damaged in the mail. This was before Skype 2.1 beta with "Show my full screen", so talking him through the installation was excruciating. It took ten hours on the install alone. After Skype 2.1 was installed the customization took only a couple hours.

But I will say that to an extent Ubuntu does streamline things. I think they are getting off their strengths though, and are getting over-complicated, with lots of breakages. Suddenly changing to upstart in the middle of the Karmic beta process is an example of how they're trying to be both stable and daring, and just making a mess in the process.

I haven't done any more with Ubuntu than a curious glance, so I can't say anything specific about it, except that I prefer KDE4 to GNOME. But, Kubuntu IS advertised as a bleeding edge KDE distro and folks who expect it NOT to break on occasions are forgetting that. I prefer the (b)leading edge because, in my experience, Kubuntu Jaunty, Karmic, and now Lucid, are very stable, and in Lucid the plasmas applets that do crash automatically restart themselves transparently.

Even for newbies there are probably better distros out there now - maybe puppy.

I used Puppy (4.2 IIRC) to install Linux on an 8 year old box with 256MB of RAM and a small HD. Ran like Lightening. Stable too. Not much with mime connectivity. Sort of like GNOME. IF you wanted a link to run something you had to choose it. Very time wasting and inconvenient.

I think a person like yourself would definitely appreciate Arch - it's not the manual days of Linux. It's actually quite slick. You should try out their KDE (or kdemod) implementation and see how it compares. Give us a report.

Now that I have Lucid set up as the bootable OS on this notebook, and I have install VirutalBox-ose, I can add Arch next to WinXP as a guest OS.

BTW, saying goodbye to KDE doesn't mean you have to say goodbye to this forum!