Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

[ardvark71]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

All that I am saying is, I know the mindset of average computer users and there expectations of what a OS should be. I have had large amounts of discussions (many working hours) with many computer novice users, and what they are looking for in a ideal OS. Linux has to overcome a huge uphill battle in to overcome the market's pre-conceived bias's toward the Microsoft product. It is what most computer users (In the world) are accustomed to.

Hi....

I absolutely could not agree more (as I have faced these expectations, too) and that has been precisely my point for quite some time. I, too, see a lot of potential in Linux and it has improved exponentially since I first started playing with Red Hat in 2001-2002. But before it can become mainstream, some things (including certain beliefs and attitudes) are going to have to change within the community.


Regards...

[ronnowoy]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

The full effect of VISTA's fiasco was to drive even more Windows users to Apple and Linux. More to Apple to be sure, but Linux got a lot of Windows users too, You are one of them.

Just to let GreyGeek know that, I started using Linux when I was running Windows XP which was one of thier better releases. I got turn onto the Linux world when a IT guy at work intorduced me to OpenOffice.

Oh, I don't know maybe check out this link (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/oper...ider=1&qprid=8). If the entire Linux world only manages to muster about 1% then how much of that do you think Kubuntu or Ubuntu has of that?

That's the kind of statement that marks you as ill-informed. Marketshare's hitlink site is a 3rd party Windows apps sales site.

Here is some more Info about Market Share of Linux.

Usage share of web client operating systems. (Source: Median values from Usage share of operating systems for March 2011.)
Windows XP (40.26%)
Windows 7 (27.49%)
Windows Vista (13.95%)
Mac OS X (7.12%)
iOS (iPhone) (2.20%)
Linux (1.82%)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_s...rating_systems)

(http://www.onlinemarketing-trends.co...countries.html)

Operating Systems
1 Windows XP 38.14%
2 Windows 7 29.46%
3 Windows Vista 12.16%
4 Mac OS X 8.97%
5 iPhone OSX 2.57%
6 Linux 1.41%
7 Android 0.85%
8 BlackBerry 0.48%
9 Windows 2000 0.15%
10 Windows 2003 0.15%

(http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php)

(http://www.onebaselinux.org/how-much...ally-have.html)

Here is some encouraging news about the profiys increasing for Linux.
(http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/linux-market-share.html)

NOTE to GreyGeek: I am not ill-informed. This is what I encounter when I am researching market share for Linux. I have also read the article about Linux's 1% market share myth. Is there a accuate objective source that tracks market share, and the methods that are used to come with the percentage. I cannot tell everyone the time I have spent reading and researching websites and books about the Linux OS. HOURS and HOURS.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

Ronnowoy, your posts are now much easier to read, thanks!

.....
(http://www.onebaselinux.org/how-much...ally-have.html)
.....
NOTE to GreyGeek: I am not ill-informed. This is what I encounter when I am researching market share for Linux. I have also read the article about Linux's 1% market share myth. Is there a accuate objective source that tracks market share, and the methods that are used to come with the percentage. I cannot tell everyone the time I have spent reading and researching websites and books about the Linux OS. HOURS and HOURS.

All of your quotes are based on the same funamental sources: quoting statistics about retail channel sales, which is worthless, even without MS PR spin. Very few Linux users buy their computers from vendors who preinstall Linux. Most buy them from PC OEMS who preload Windows. They buy computers with Windows installed because the offerings on which Linux were installed were less than desirable and there were fewer options and peripherals available. To make matters worse, the price difference was less than the Microsoft tax. As you no doubt know, MOST PCs that are running Linux were counted as running Windows when they were sold. There is NO accurate count on the number of unique downloads of any particular distro, nor on exactly how many different PCs the same ISO was used to install Linux on. I've used a LiveUSB of Kubuntu to install it on dozens of computers. While many run Linux and Windows in dual boot for various reasons, many like me run Linux as the primary or sole OS.

Even so-called "Linux sites" , and there are many who pretend to be "for" Linux but parrot Microsoft's PR line, but your "how-much-market-share-does-linux-really-have" cite is not an example. It brings up Microsoft's PR statistics:

According to statistics cited by Microsoft, Linux has only two percent of the market share for desktop environments and twenty percent for servers.

It goes on to cite a larger percentage:

So how much market share does Linux really have? According to website trackers and self-reported surveys, Linux has actually reached almost five percent of the desktop computer operating systems in use. Similarly, while noted as a minority player in the server wars, Linux actually runs nearly seventy-five percent of currently active servers.

It is usually something less than 2%. Even though it presents a market share of 5%, which is certainly larger than 2% or less, that particular citation is especially worthless since it places the Mac market share (in 2010 no less!) at under 5%. Independent retail channel statistics, and I leave it to you to Google them, has placed, by actual invoice count, the Apple market share at over 10% for several years.

When Microsoft's PR department isn't sending out PR memos with fictitious market share percentages, it sometimes generates real statistics for its boss, Steve Ballmer. He can't eat his own PR dog food and expect to form useful competitive strategies. I gave you a citation earlier. Did you read it?

Microsoft's CEO Steve Ballmer had some interesting things to say yesterday about which companies Microsoft sees as its competitors in the client operating system space. You'd think Apple was their number one competitor - and you'd be wrong. Microsoft sees two other competitors as their primary adversaries.

During a speech for investors, Steve Ballmer showed the following slide to his audience:

I posted that slide in a previous msg. In Feb of 2009 Ballmer identified Microsoft's strongest OS competitor:

According to Microsoft, Linux is a bigger threat to the company than Apple, placing Linux above Apple in the marketshare figure pie chart thing. "Linux, you could see on the slide, and Apple has certainly increased its share somewhat," Ballmer said. He went on to explain how the company views Apple:
...
In any case, it appears that Linux ... is a larger blip on Microsoft's radar than Apple,

I think it is fair to say that Win7 (which is merely WinXP with cosmetic surgery and makeup) has reversed the slide that VISTA created, but the cat is out of the bag, especially with non-corporate users. Corporate users have contracts and policies which embed Microsoft purchases for years. The Dept of Revenue, where I worked, had a 10 year contract with DELL, and by default Microsoft, since DELL shipped Microsoft preinstalled. However, even there Linux crept in.


BTW, Ronnowoy, if you are still into business modeling allow me to recommend SAGE, a powerful math tool that can rival Mathematica in most situations. It includes a link to several videos that describe and demo SAGE. I wish I had access to it when I was in graduate school, but PCs weren't around then.

EDIT: Here is a video specifically about modeling with SAGE.

[dequire]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

This has, in sum-total, been one of the most interesting forum threads I've read in a long time. I would just add a few things here (and is sort of a re-wording of some of GreyGeek's earlier comments put and expanded upon from my prospective) is that in order to understand how FOSS software "products" like Kubuntu work, you need to learn about and get involved in a FOSS group. Then you begin to see GNU Linux for what it really is. First, one needs to become educated about FOSS. A good start would be to learn about Richard M. Stallman and the FSF website. Learn as much as you can about the communities around the software and how they work.

Then one should get involved in an open source project. As an example, I am not a programmer, but I am a member of the KDE Promo team. FOSS exists because of the millions of us who DO SOMETHING. We (the world-wide community) post on forums. We answer questions in IRC. We answer questions on email lists. We market Kubuntu and KDE (always more help here is needed - If you are a marketing person hit me up). We translate and document all this great software. We test and report bugs. We write blogs and do interviews. We hold LoCo meetings and speak at universities in order to spread the word. It's amazing to me how large and vibrant the FOSS world is even in the areas outside of programming...

Right now I'm actively working on a project for KDE. Other times I fall out for a while when life gets too crazy and time becomes a premium. But I'll always come back. I'm a member of my LoCo Ubuntu Team (and I always approach others from a Kubuntu perspective. After all, I'm allowed to (Freedom!) and I love KDE )

For what it's worth - I have a business degree and I work in a business during the day (Yes, all the PC's in my area run Kubuntu 10.10, which at times is a royal pain because of the proprietary MS-owned world that the business sector of the USA lives in). But you can not approach Kubuntu or any FOSS software "product" from a purely capitalistic approach. It needs to be approached with an understanding of what this amazing software you are using actually IS, and what it rather spectacularly represents. When the light finally goes off and you "get it", you're in a much better place to evaluate how things, products, and processes can be improved by the communities who care about them.

The bottom line is, if you love Linux, find a way to give back. You can give money because yes, we all need it and so do great projects like Kubuntu, KDE, Libre Office, Firefox, etc (actually, etc. x30,000 since that is our repository size!). But to only look at the greater FOSS community strictly from a business / marketing / money perspective would be a shame. It would also miss the whole point. And that point is that without involvement in some capacity in some facet of the worldwide FOSS Community one would miss the opportunity to live, laugh, be challenged, and learn from this great, vast, dedicated, smart, and talented group of individuals from all over the globe. What a fascinating and rewarding opportunity that FOSS provides us all.

[MoonRise]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

This has, in sum-total, been one of the most interesting forum threads I've read in a long time.

+1 on that. GG and Ronno are doing a very good clean debate here. Love it!!!

[Mark]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

Don't you guys ever sleep?

[ronnowoy]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

in order to understand how FOSS software "products" like Kubuntu work, you need to learn about and get involved in a FOSS group. Then you begin to see GNU Linux for what it really is. First, one needs to become educated about FOSS.

Note to dequire: I totally agree with you on this. I have done some consideable amount of research on the Open-Source world and, I love the freedom that it allows me in my everyday life. I always need to learn more. I read some of the wiki on Richard Stallman. What an amazing individual. I will do some more resaerch and see if I can use some of the skills I have to help part-time. 8)

I have a business degree and I work in a business during the day (Yes, all the PC's in my area run Kubuntu 10.10, which at times is a royal pain because of the proprietary MS-owned world that the business sector of the USA lives in). But you can not approach Kubuntu or any FOSS software "product" from a purely capitalistic approach. It needs to be approached with an understanding of what this amazing software you are using actually IS, and what it rather spectacularly represents. When the light finally goes off and you "get it", you're in a much better place to evaluate how things, products, and processes can be improved by the communities who care about them.

I have a en-grained view of software living here in the individualist capitalist United States. I guess it does not help living here so close to Microsoft central ether. I understand that this is a community that a large amount of contributors voluenteer thier time. I understand that the open-source community does not base what it does based on profit (capitalism) but rather, on providing an improving product based on the altruistic motives from the community. I might not completely "get it" but, I am still learning about the entire community even after four years. I have alot of class-room experience but not as much real world practical expeience. I just find that having market share would only help the overall community. I do have some marketing knowledge since you seem to be interested in that skill.

[MoonRise]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

Don't you guys ever sleep?

What is this "sleep" you talk of!?!?!?!

[GreyGeek]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

Sleep?

Sure! I'm typing this with my eyes closed!

The guys who don't sleep are Snowhog and Dibl.

[dequire]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

Note to dequire: I totally agree with you on this. I have done some consideable amount of research on the Open-Source world and, I love the freedom that it allows me in my everyday life. I always need to learn more. I read some of the wiki on Richard Stallman. What an amazing individual. I will do some more resaerch and see if I can use some of the skills I have to help part-time. 8)

I can see you're making progress! It's almost like a farm co-op if you have those around you (and being so near rather liberal Seattle I would imagine you do). It took me a long time. And like you, and everyone else here, we're always learning

I have alot of class-room experience but not as much real world practical expeience. I just find that having market share would only help the overall community. I do have some marketing knowledge since you seem to be interested in that skill.

Sure - That would be awesome! I'll PM you some info later tonight.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

....
I read some of the wiki on Richard Stallman. What an amazing individual. ...

Absolutely! No Stallman? No GPL. No GPL? No Linux. (Or, at least, a Linux no more popular than BSD. I am not saying that BSD is a bad OS. It is not. It is a fine OS. I would use it in a heart-beat if Linux were unavailable to me. Its supporters feel it is better than Linux. In some areas it is. In other areas it is not.)

BSD is a Unix-like OS. It uses the BSD license. That license says that you can do anything you want with the source code, including compiling it to the binary, while keeping the source and any changes you made or added to it secret! . All you have to do is place an attribution file somewhere near the binary. The BSD coders, and they are very good at their job, are happy with that. So was Bill Gates and Microsoft. They took the BSD IP/TCP stack and made it part of Windows. IF you know where to look you might find the BSD attribution file. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a clue who wrote that stack and would probably assume that it is part of Microsoft's "Innovative IP". I don't know if Windows still uses the BSD IP/TCP stack, but the BSD source did not receive any improvements back from Microsoft, or any other vendors of proprietary software who plundered the BSD code. But, if there is one reason to explain why Linux is being used by many more than BSD, one could point to their respective license.

Most FOSS coders contribute code under the GPL because they view their code as a "seed" which grows into a strong plant when other coders add improvements, documentation, fertili$er, etc.... Because of the GPL other coders benefit from the initial code and the original coder benefits from the contributions of others. Because of the GPL non-coders reap the greatest benefits. That's why many non-coders contribute their time, money or other talents to a software project, or a forum like this.

Stallman wrote the GPL. He and others have contributed to the GPLv3, but the fundamental ideas are his, and he has continued to fight for them when others wondered off course, became distracted, or went for the money.

The Foundations of the GPL

Nobody should be restricted by the software they use. There are four freedoms that every user should have:

* the freedom to use the software for any purpose,
* the freedom to change the software to suit your needs,
* the freedom to share the software with your friends and neighbors, and
* the freedom to share the changes you make.

When a program offers users all of these freedoms, we call it free software.

That's why I asked, in a previous response, "what part of free don't you understand?" I wasn't mocking or belittling you. A lot of FOSS users do not understand what the GPL means, or what their rights under it are.
1) I cannot be restricted in my use of GPL'd software. In affect, I own the code. I can use it for anything I wish.
2) I can also add or remove code from the original. As long as I keep my compiled binary for my own personal use I do not have to share it. IF I give (or sell) the binary to anyone, and they ask for the source code which produced the binary (not just the original) I am OBLIGATED to supply it to them, charging no more than what is the ordinary cost of CDs, mail, server expense, etc...
3) I can share the original source with anyone I wish, as easily and as freely as I obtained it. The persons to whom I give the original source code to has the same four freedoms that I have. I cannot modify the GPL license that came with the original. IF I add restrictions or remove freedoms from the GPL license under which the original source code is licensed, then the GPL prevents me from distributing the source code or its binary at all.
4) ditto with the source code or binary that contains my modifications.

Proprietary software houses cannot abide by the GPL. Many have tried to ignore or circumvent it but all have failed in court. The GPL has as strong a legal ground as any other software license.

Let me be absolutely blunt. It is my opinion that ANY license which does NOT include these Four Freedoms, or limits them in any way, is not a license which would be beneficial to Linux or the FOSS movement. The OSI (Open Source Initiative), since its formation over a dozen years ago, has approved about 60 or so licenses as "open source". Most are not, when one compares those licenses with the GPL. The affect is like having the Tree of Life planted in a garden but surrounded by dozens of other similar plants, imitations, making the GPL difficult to notice, or the imitations becoming confused with the GPL itself. The last time I read the rules on the OSI webpage, the individual corporations were responsible for maintaining their own license in accordance with OSI's "Free Software" guidelines. That's like having the fox guard the chickens.

[ronnowoy]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

Sure - That would be awesome! I'll PM you some info later tonight.

dequire; I have not received that info for you yet in my PM. I will be waiting for that info from you.

That's why I asked, in a previous response, "what part of free don't you understand?" I wasn't mocking or belittling you. A lot of FOSS users do not understand what the GPL means, or what their rights under it are.
1) I cannot be restricted in my use of GPL'd software. In affect, I own the code. I can use it for anything I wish.
2) I can also add or remove code from the original. As long as I keep my compiled binary for my own personal use I do not have to share it. IF I give (or sell) the binary to anyone, and they ask for the source code which produced the binary (not just the original) I am OBLIGATED to supply it to them, charging no more than what is the ordinary cost of CDs, mail, server expense, etc...
3) I can share the original source with anyone I wish, as easily and as freely as I obtained it. The persons to whom I give the original source code to has the same four freedoms that I have. I cannot modify the GPL license that came with the original. IF I add restrictions or remove freedoms from the GPL license under which the original source code is licensed, then the GPL prevents me from distributing the source code or its binary at all.

GreyGeek; I must first say that I am impressed with the knowledge that you have concerning the FOSS community. I must also thank you for the SAGE project info. I will get into that when I get a chance. I must bring to light something that I do not know if you have considered in the overall scheme of things concerning the Linux community. I do not want you to take this the wrong way. I might be partially repeating my self here but, the majority of computer users that I have talked to and encountered do not care about "the code." because this is way to technical for them to comprehend. What people care about is finding a easy way to install OS easily and have everything work out of the box. The Internet, programs, and the OS should work near flawlessly ( with a minimum amount of bugs) in their minds. The compatibility with all of the programs that they use (YES, I know Microsoft Office suite) should not be an issue. I know that you are a extremely technical individual who will probably say that people do not understand the community and, what it is about. You are right! That is the problem that the Open-Source community in drawing more people to it. I do not agree with this type of thinking about the community but, it always surprises me when others tell me that they would rather pay for Windows than deal with the headaches associated with using Linux since this is an unknown OS. They would rather stay with something that they know then go with something that they don't.

I respect the community! I know what "Free" means concerning this software. I love it. This is what drew me to the community in the first place. I have read this many times off of the Ubuntu site, KDE site, Kubuntu site, and related articles about what the community was about when I was investigating it for myself. When I was considering using the free Linux software for my own personal use, I went though great lengths trying different Linux distributions. I tried Novell SUSE, then Sun's Solairis, Unbuntu, and finally my dream OS Kubuntu. This was the closest to the Windows environment in the GUI's that I could find. This is what I liked but with the absence of the problems associated with Microsoft software such as; malware, spiware, viruses, and the occasional crashes that happened in Windows. The point that I am making here is that I did allot more investigating and experimenting (with many crashes and incompatibilities with software with limited versatility) to get what I wanted. Most new users who would consider coming to the Linux community would not do as much as I did. I can say that the software has made HUGE strides in becoming more user friendly for those who might want to migrate from the Windows world but, we still have a little more distance to go. Why is wanting the those Windows users important? It is because many of them do not know what they are missing by using Windows. Whether we like it or not, Windows (XP, Vista, and 7) still has the majority of the OS's market share. I have expanded earlier why this is important. I feel that you feel this way also. I feel that if the community continues to improve the Linux kernal, the various GUI's, and the various distro's at the rate that the community is, Microsoft will continue to have a hard time in keeping up. I believe that if we as a community can spoil the attempts by Microsoft to kill the Open-Source Community, and we as a community continue to improve the code then, Microsoft will lose market share in the future. I just feel that we could do a better job of marketing. I would like to help in this respect. Thank you.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

(KDE4) was the closest to the Windows environment in the GUI's that I could find.

I agree. It is also why KDE has been my desktop of choice since September of 1998, when I installed SuSE because it featured the beta release of KDE 1.0. Since I switched from Apples to IBM PCs in 1980, and for the next 18 years, I used the PC environment running a Microsoft desktop in some form. When I was driven by the instability of Windows 95 that came preinstalled on a brand new Sony VAIO desktop to revert to OS/2 (in which I ran Windows 3.0 FWG) I happened upon a book about Linux which contained RH 5.0 on a CD. That Sony was rock solid stable running RH 5.0 which, obviously, also was rock solid stable, was an eye opener. I had blamed Sony for making crappy hardware.

From 1980 until I retired in 2008 I made a living associated with programming or science. To avoid a mind-warp when switching back and forth between a WinXX desktop or a KDE desktop I configured my KDE desktop, as much as I could, to look like the Windows desktop I was currently using. It is a lot easier to configure KDE than it is to configure WinXX. That way, when I switch between the two I generally use the same keyboard hot keys and mouse events. Unfortunately, dumbing down Dolphin or not using "locate", or Synaptic, is not an option I want to implement on Linux, so when running Windows Explorer on Windows I often am frustrated by its lack of power, and opening a DOS box makes one feel equally handcuffed compared to what I can do in a Konsole box.

Don't be surprised when someone tells you they prefer Windows to Kubuntu (or Linux). A lot of people have spent a lot of time using Windows and think that they "knew" it from the beginning, not realizing how much hard they had to climb even to reach the very low plateau they are currently on. Most still cannot differentiate between an OS application, like WinExp and a 3rd party app, or realize that some keystrokes are universal and work the same in all apps. And those who have figured that out are considered "gurus". For them to move to Linux would be, in their eyes, like becoming a baby again, not realizing that with KDE4 most of the keystrokes and mouse events and app paradigms they used in Windows will work the same in KDE4. (i.e., File-->Open, or, File -->Quit, which would be Alt+F-Ctl+O or Alt+F-CtlQ, or just use the mouse the same way! )

What keeps some of the more knowledgeable ones with Windows is that they feel like big fish in their pond of neighbors. Moving to Linux would make them minnows again. What amazes me is that people will plug their ears and close their eyes and suffer the attacks of malware, regardless of what it costs them, to remain big fish in that pond, or to avoid a new learning curve.

Microsoft is and will continue to lose market share because that is the way the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and the ecology of growth, works, even when perturbed by illegal tilting of the playing field. I read a paper on the statistical analysis of market share between Apple, Microsoft and Linux. Essentially, it shows that the percentages would level out at about 40% Microsoft, 35% Apple and 25% Linux, +- 5% for any or all of them, unless one of them makes a spectacularly lethal market blunder, like trying to force chip makers into making chips that will only boot Windows. That will black-lash.

[ronnowoy]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

Microsoft is and will continue to lose market share because that is the way the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and the ecology of growth, works, even when perturbed by illegal tilting of the playing field. I read a paper on the statistical analysis of market share between Apple, Microsoft and Linux. Essentially, it shows that the percentages would level out at about 40% Microsoft, 35% Apple and 25% Linux, +- 5%

GreyGeek: Could you give me a link to this or reference me to this. I would like to read this for myself. Thanks.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Kubuntu 11.04 sucks

It was a paper given to me by my friend and co-worker, Hoe Phu Trang, who was working at the Dept of Revenue as a statistician while, at the same time, working on his PhD in Economic. He is a math wizard, one of the smartest fellows I've ever met. It was also dense with advanced math of Bayesian analysis, but a good read. I gave the paper back to him after I read it and made a photo copy. That was about five or six years ago. I probably stand a better chance of finding it on line than in my filing cabinets, which contents I have gradually reduced as I cleaned out my office. I'll look both in my papers and on line.


EDIT: I haven't heard back from Hoe Phu yet, but here is a similar OS modeling document, including source code and instructions for compiling at the end of the document. It seems rather fair in its assumptions and modeling. Be aware that it uses the name "Software, Inc" to refer to both open and closed OS software houses at various times through out the article, so be sure you are aware of which type of company he is talking about.

# A mathematical study on the feasibility of various business models of software

http://oasis.dit.upm.es/~jantonio/do...os/analysis.ps
Okular opens it just fine. You may have to use the graphical capture and conversion to text tool of Okular to create the C source code.