[SOLVED]windoze like user experience (but linux can be fixed!)

[jankushka]

my karmic boots fast.
i can log into kde4 very quickly.
however...
from getting into my desktop to actually being able to start working...
i takes 2 solid minutes!
during which i'm not exactly sure what happens.
but after which:
the akonadi processes finally pop up in the process table,
knetworkmanager shows up in the system tray,
and the default welcome tune starts playing.
very windoze indeed.
and not a good sign.

cheers
---
dell precision m65
core2 t7200@2ghz
2 gb ram
100gb 7200rpm hd

[Teunis]

Re: windoze like user experience

Hmm, at least the tune comes when all is up, in Windows the tune signals the start of the startup :P

I observed something similar (different post), the time the splash is shown is extremely short compared to the actual building of the KDE desktop.
And on this laptop it's still booting a lot faster than either XP or Vista.

[The Liquidator]

Re: windoze like user experience

my karmic boots fast.
i can log into kde4 very quickly.
however...
from getting into my desktop to actually being able to start working...
i takes 2 solid minutes!
during which i'm not exactly sure what happens.
but after which:
the akonadi processes finally pop up in the process table,
knetworkmanager shows up in the system tray,
and the default welcome tune starts playing.
very windoze indeed.
and not a good sign.

By contrast, on my laptop (a Dell 630m 1.86 pentium M) my experience is rather different. From grub to desktop is 40-45 seconds and the moment the desktop is up the applications will run.

I think your main problem is Akonadi. It is probably taking a whole lot of resources looking for stuff which is not there, which will of course extend the time it runs You might think of stopping it from running at start up:

http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/PIM...adi_startup.3F

Whether that works for you depends on whether you have anything that needs it.

Also consider using wicd instead of NM especially if you are using wireless

HTH

Ian

[dibl]

Re: windoze like user experience

i takes 2 solid minutes!
during which i'm not exactly sure what happens.

If you open a Konsole window and run top and leave it running, then shut down and reboot, I think the top window should open on your desktop as soon as the desktop is loaded. If that works, then you can see what's going on for the two minutes.

[jankushka]

Re: windoze like user experience

Hmm, at least the tune comes when all is up, in Windows the tune signals the start of the startup :P

true.
their cheating is worse...as usual

I think your main problem is Akonadi.
It is probably taking a whole lot of resources looking for stuff which is not there, which will of course extend the time it runs
You might think of stopping it from running at start up.
...
Whether that works for you depends on whether you have anything that needs it.

thanks very much.
i also think akonadi is the cause of this behaviour.
i shall have to look into it (i don't have a clue as to what it's actually supposed to do or how it works).
thing is a lot of stuff is changing and i haven't been able to keep up 'cause i'm very busy with a lot of other stuff.
i reckon i shall have to start and try and catch up, though.
grub, upstart, akonadi...what else?

Also consider using wicd instead of NM especially if you are using wireless

i was using wicd until just recently (a couple of weeks ago) because nm didn't work properly.
nm with knetworkmanager now work alright, though.
at least it does what i need (i.e. wpa-psk, wpa-eap) well enough.
i tend to favour kde applications because of the integration with kwallet.
i like to keep my passwords in one place.

If you open a Konsole window and run top and leave it running...

thanks mate.
yeah, that's almost exactly what i've done.
and i could see that once the akonadi stuff starts, then everything goes on pretty fast.
thing is i'm unable to spot anything funny before that.
i'll have to dig in a bit more, i guess.

cheers

[MoonRise]

Re: windoze like user experience

Quote from: The Liquidator on Today at 08:30:05 am
Also consider using wicd instead of NM especially if you are using wireless

i was using wicd until just recently (a couple of weeks ago) because nm didn't work properly.
nm with knetworkmanager now work alright, though.
at least it does what i need (i.e. wpa-psk, wpa-eap) well enough.
i tend to favour kde applications because of the integration with kwallet.
i like to keep my passwords in one place.

Couldn't agree more about the integration with kwallet. I too have been using KNM even in its current state of refit. It does seem to be capable at the moment.

[jankushka]

Re: windoze like user experience

is this normal?

$ pso|grep akonadi
2202 1 S myuser 1000 ? 44476 4932 /usr/bin/akonadi_control
2204 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 328952 9408 akonadiserver
2206 2204 S myuser 1000 ? 193804 26388 /usr/sbin/mysqld-akonadi --defaults-file=/home/myuser/.local/share/akonadi//mysql.conf --datadir=/home/myuser/.local/share/akonadi/db_data/ --socket=/home/myuser/.local/share/akonadi/db_misc/mysql.socket
2242 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 63588 14688 /usr/bin/akonadi_birthdays_resource --identifier akonadi_birthdays_resource
2243 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 63592 14704 /usr/bin/akonadi_birthdays_resource --identifier akonadi_birthdays_resource_0
2244 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 63592 14692 /usr/bin/akonadi_birthdays_resource --identifier akonadi_birthdays_resource_1
2245 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 63680 14932 /usr/bin/akonadi_ical_resource --identifier akonadi_ical_resource_2
2246 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75660 19012 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_1
2247 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75628 18972 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_10
2248 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75664 18976 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_11
2249 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75640 18964 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_12
2250 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 18964 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_13
2251 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75660 18968 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_14
2252 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75656 18976 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_15
2253 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 18956 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_16
2254 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 18972 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_17
2256 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 18972 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_18
2257 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 18980 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_19
2258 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 18984 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_2
2259 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 18996 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_20
2262 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 19056 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_21
2265 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 18976 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_22
2266 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75652 18996 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_23
2268 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 18968 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_24
2272 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 18992 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_25
2274 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 18988 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_26
2275 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 18976 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_27
2277 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 18968 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_3
2280 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75644 19052 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_4
2283 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75656 18964 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_5
2285 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75648 18972 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_6
2287 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75628 18952 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_7
2288 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75664 18956 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_8
2291 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 75628 18956 /usr/bin/akonadi_kcal_resource --identifier akonadi_kcal_resource_9
2293 2202 S myuser 1000 ? 61004 14116 /usr/bin/akonadi_vcard_resource --identifier akonadi_vcard_resource_0

[JonPiper]

Re: windoze like user experience

Too Windoz like for me. Worse than Vista:

Kubuntu 9.04 beta amd 64 desktop

Comments on this release:
1. It refused to boot to run from the live CD -- locked up before the
splash at the desktop. The laptop is a Intel dual core 64 bit
Toshiba A135-S4467; it normally runs Kubuntu 8.04.3 (AMD64) flawlessly.

2. It did install on a desktop (a 2.6 gHz AMD dual core with 2 gig of
memory (nVidia) graphics. Previously the system ran Ubuntu & Kubuntu
8.04 & 9.04 installed with about 600,000 files. The /home partition was
not formatted because of the data - eventhough it was backed up.
There are 13 partitions on the system and two other Linux systems
(Debian & SUSE) plus FreeBSD and DOS - I have been using Linux for over
10 years and KDE since ver 0.1. It took three ties before it installed.
Try #1) No GRUB menu, No KDM, No splash, No desktop, try #2) fully
installed but died with a black screen of death after about an hour and
would not reboot, 3) fully installed but with no panel or anything on
the desktop -- a blank blue screen with bubbles (I went in to recovery
and mv'd .kde* > .kde*) which cleaned things up after rebooting. The
installation was a work of art - don't change it cosmetically but it
should be more reliable; you shouldn't have to install three times to
get a working system.

3. Just like Kubuntu 9.04 the desktop was disappointing. Everything is too
dark and is difficult to see. I could not change any of the colors to
make things more visable. As far as I am concerned KDE 4.? is for the
birds - too much flash and obvious attempt to follow Windoz Vista! The
menu is a real looser; reminds me of the SUSE default menu except that I
can't rid of it even after installing the traditional menu. The default
menu was also reallllllly sloooow, plus it takes three or four steps for
each selection - bummers. I traditional menu is OK and quick -- but the
first one remains. I sit at a computer 12 to 18 hours a day and I
don't want to make four menu clicks when two or three would to the same
thing. You can waste more time moving around the system than doing
anything else and that is time out of production.

4. I ran Kate, Dolphin, and OpenOffice Writer & Calc. The "Tools menu"
in Kate does not work. I tried to install new programs but there was no
way to do it - no apt, adept, or synaptic package manager. There
is a KPackageKit that I assume is supposed to install software but it
needs a password; there is no way to enter it. It can't find a package
if you enter the name in search-- it just gives you a green message -
finished: 0 seconds; about as useful as tits on a boar hog! I can't use
the internet (no Firefox or Opera). There is no menu editor. I cannot
put a menu in the panel. Can't move an icon in the panel to rearrange
them in order of frequency of use or importance. The panel is on the
bottom -- can't move it to the top of the screen where I alway have it.

5. I would have a very difficult time selling a client on using such a
system; the same holds true for Kubuntu 9.04 -- if they ever saw
8.04 or earlier Kubuntu. Unless it is changed drastically, this
will be a tough sell; I wouldn't use it and if I won't use it, my
clients wouldn't use it either. There is something called KDE uBlog on
the screen that doesn't do anything and I can't get rid of it. A lot of
the documentation relating to the panel is just plain incorrect; it
appears to come from KDE 3.5 or before. From a business standpoint,
the panel is the center of productivity and ease of learning. KDE 3.5
was great because of the very simple and obvious drop down menu with:
move button, delete button, configure button, panel menu. That was
replaced with an awkward three/four step process that is about as clear
as mud.

6. Error Messages: program "polkit-kde-manager" closed unexpectedly and
program "apport-kde" closed unexpectedly -- they cannot report the
problem. These come up repeatedly.

I sorry to be so negative, but so far, I cannot find anything I like about
Kubuntu 9.10. In my over 30 years as a programmer, I have never seen a
more un-intuitive system except DOS, 1970's & 1980's UNIX systems, and Windoz Vista. It is equal or worse than 9.04.

Since writing the above, things have happened:
1. It deleted two directories and a bunch of files.
2. The panel reverted to BLACK that you can hardly read -- just like
Kubuntu 9.04 -- I can find no way to change the colors or contrast
between the panel and writing. If I did't need KDE 4.? for programming,
I would go back to 8.04 in a heartbeat.
3. All of my icons in the panel disappeared plus four of my desktops
disappeared from the launcher. The launcher reverted to two lines and
were tiny, tiny, tiny-- too tiny to be used..
I had turned the system off to eat and when I came back all of the above
happened.

I'll download another system today and hope it has been fixed where I and
others can use it. I did't do that because the file wasn't newer than mine.

Jon Piper

[lmilano]

Re: windoze like user experience

There are fundamental philosophical differences between Windows and Kubuntu.

Regarding the slow login, I've been researching, and found quite a few interesting things:
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...opic=3106858.0

See here in particular
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...9777#msg199777

Also, keep in mind that Karmic is still at the beta stage, what's the big fuss? Oh well.

[dibl]

Re: windoze like user experience


@Jon, I think you might have made/used a defective CD (or defective ISO download or something) --

However, here is the real problem:

As far as I am concerned KDE 4.? is for the
birds - too much flash and obvious attempt to follow Windoz Vista! The
menu is a real looser;

If you seriously dislike KDE 4, what the heck are you doing playing with Kubuntu?

[lmilano]

Re: windoze like user experience

@dibl, true. This is obviously a broken system, I ran Karmic on my netbook over the weekend and it's been really solid (and didn't have these issues).

[Teunis]

Re: windoze like user experience

Yep, JonPiper has a broken system.
9.10 is the first KDE4.* that I consider nearly as snappy as the old 3.5 that I still run on 8.04.

Darkness of the desktop is clearly a local problem as the blue screens brightness is nothing unusual but then who uses the default wallpaper...

I did some timing:
XP from BIOS login to Windows login screen - 55 sec.
From login to tune - 25 sec.
From tune to usable - 82 sec.
From usable to full start up - 30 sec.

Total start up 3m12s (to useful 2m42s)

Kubuntu 9.10 from BIOS login to KDE login - 50 sec.
From login to tune - 65 sec.
From tune to fully up - 2 sec.

Total start up 1m58s

No shocking difference

Now I have to check out this Akonadi DB.
And I'm curious what difference the network manager makes, untill 9.10 I always (had to) used wicd.

[lmilano]

Re: windoze like user experience

@Teunis. Please see my thread linked above. I address many of these issues. In particular, the network manager had no impact for me. Akonadi per se is not an issue (at least on a minimal install).

Somehow, it seems that something is installed by kubuntu-desktop that really slows down the login to a full desktop. That thing is not present in kde-minimal. It would be nice to identify that bottleneck and report it.

[kubicle]

Re: windoze like user experience

Everything is too dark and is difficult to see. I could not change any of the colors to
make things more visable.

You can change the plasma theme by right-clicking on the desktop, system colors are also changeable through system settings.

The menu is a real looser; reminds me of the SUSE default menu except that I
can't rid of it even after installing the traditional menu. The default
menu was also reallllllly sloooow, plus it takes three or four steps for
each selection - bummers. I traditional menu is OK and quick -- but the
first one remains.

If you unlock the widgets, you can right-click on widgets to remove them. If you don't like the default menu, try the fairly popular lancelot menu. I find krunner (alt+f2) faster to use than any menu known to man, if efficiency is what you're after.

I ran Kate, Dolphin, and OpenOffice Writer & Calc. The "Tools menu"
in Kate does not work.

Works here out of the box, perhaps there is something wrong with your installation

I tried to install new programs but there was no
way to do it - no apt, adept, or synaptic package manager.

apt is installed by default, synaptic is installable via apt...adept has been discontinued altogether

There is a KPackageKit that I assume is supposed to install software but it
needs a password; there is no way to enter it. It can't find a package
if you enter the name in search-- it just gives you a green message -
finished: 0 seconds; about as useful as tits on a boar hog!

Can't say anything about that, I don't have packagekit installed

I can't use the internet (no Firefox or Opera).

konqueror by default, other browsers available through apt...opera available through opera.com

There is no menu editor.

Yes there is, run 'kmenuedit' or right-click on menu button (although this might not work with the 'traditional' menu)

I cannot put a menu in the panel.

What do you mean?

Can't move an icon in the panel to rearrange them in order of frequency of use or importance. The panel is on the bottom -- can't move it to the top of the screen where I alway have it.

Both are possible, unlock widgets and click the plasma icon in the panel to open panel config bar. Now you can move widgets in panel and move the panel.

And as mentioned, remember that you are using an unreleased version, there are still bugs. Things are different in KDE4, but that doesn't always mean you "can't do something"

[Teunis]

Re: windoze like user experience

Kubicle, I considered writing a reply like yours to JonPiper's lamentations.

But then I figured someone that claims to have run KDE for years knows the default browser is Konqueror and about the power of apt-get. :P
And then a computer user of 30 years also knows about the right-click to reveal secrets like the switch between the Kickoff and Classical menu.

I'll leave it at this.