Kubuntu is not suitable as productive OS and has a major issue.

[MadMage999]

Not to forget (I have mentioned that): The blank screen that made me go for a new installation occurred after a common update and a crash of discover 2 weeks ago. (There were only a few updates)

And the 400+ updates worked applying at once without issue using apt commands.

I would expect updates do work within a particular LTS release, even when still using the original ISO.

I also go for a clean installation changing the version number.
I always did clean installations even when going from mint 17 to 17.3.

Well here's the thing, Vaira, from my perspective:

Software crashes. Windows, Linux, MacOS, Playstation, whatever. It falls down and goes boom. And if it does it at a bad time, like when you're installing updates it hoses your system.

This thread has been going on for days now, everyone has offered their opinions and tried to help. We've examined the issue and many of us have gone the extra mile to be fair to you and understand what is happening here and get to the root cause of it.

It's time to let it go. If something like this happens again, file a bug report. Give as much detail as you can, the system automatically gathers as much information as it can on it's own and prepares it, maybe someone else can offer more guidance with what to do if the system crashed before a bug report was filed. In any case filing bug reports is how things get fixed, without knowing the details of what went wrong ( and I mean system logs, etc) they don't know where to look.

I'm not trying to be unfair. Quite the opposite, but I hope you can see in retrospect that this thread was you venting your frustration, and you haven't been entirely fair to Kubuntu. It's not unsuitable as a productive OS, as GreyGeek said thousands upon thousands use it every day to be productve.

Does it have bugs? Of course, what software doesn't? But this issue has been overblown from the start, and I'm sorry to the Oldtimers and Devs if I've been unfair to them and their work and superior experience. What I think is that discover bugged out and being that it was doing an update this caused a catostrophic failure. Sad, frustrating. I can understand, I've been there.

[Vaira]

Yes. When I have opened this thread I was still emotional.
It's no big deal anymore.

Software can have bugs therefore the OS has a feed from which it gets updates.
Questionable is when the app that should update is bugged since end of 2016 itself and current bug records have still 44 files...

I go on using Kubuntu...let's see how it develops.

Thanks to anybody who has replied.

[jglen490]

I think I smell a dead horse ...

In Linux, if one way of doing something isn't satisfactory, there are plenty of other ways that probably are. Explore your options ...

[jlittle]

So you say we're beta testers until 2nd release?

Yes, I think that's fair comment, for a broad but useful definition of the term. Again, I don't think it can be otherwise, given the time scales, and the vast variety of software and hardware. My complaint is that this is not made plain, that expectations have not been informed. Note that Microsoft has moved to a similar model, making the non-corporate world essentially beta testers, by pushing barely tested updates to them.

First release, second release, dot one, dot two, dot three...when is the right time to 'use' a release or to consider a release as stable?

I know you're asking rhetorically, to be scathing, and IMO it's a fair point. But, there is an answer; each user decides what suits them. I suggest that you've discovered that ".0" doesn't suit you. Breakage is not predictable, though. One release you might be lucky, and another totalled. 18.04 has been really good for me (I recoiled from GUI updaters years ago) but 12.04 nearly pushed me off Kubuntu.

If you need solid stability, I recommend you learn and use btrfs, so that bad updates can be quickly (Greygeek says it takes 3 minutes) backed out. To this point there is the obvious criticism that it's not ready for the GUI user (sudo what?) but it should be. I want a GUI safe mode that the everyperson can click to undo a bad update; not for me but for those who will call me, or post on KFN. Valve's support of Linux for gaming might make this urgent. Alternatively, VMs can do it, but I don't know much about them. There are hints that Microsoft are looking to do something like this.

[oldgeek]

Even Linux Mint 19 is suggesting that we use Timeshift to take snapshots before doing updates.

[GreyGeek]

Linux users are beta testers ALL THE TIME. That's part of the social contract in exchange for free software.

[MadMage999]

This will explain a lot about the origins of gnu the operating system that the linux kernel powers in kubuntu and most (but not all, I'd be surprised if someone out there din't have gnu running with a different kernel) gnu setups that everyone calls Linux after the kernel.

The site I mean, the page specifically linked is about free software philosophy.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

[Vaira]

I think I smell a dead horse ...

In Linux, if one way of doing something isn't satisfactory, there are plenty of other ways that probably are. Explore your options ...

Yes, I think that's fair comment, for a broad but useful definition of the term. Again, I don't think it can be otherwise, given the time scales, and the vast variety of software and hardware. My complaint is that this is not made plain, that expectations have not been informed. Note that Microsoft has moved to a similar model, making the non-corporate world essentially beta testers, by pushing barely tested updates to them.

I know you're asking rhetorically, to be scathing, and IMO it's a fair point. But, there is an answer; each user decides what suits them. I suggest that you've discovered that ".0" doesn't suit you. Breakage is not predictable, though. One release you might be lucky, and another totalled. 18.04 has been really good for me (I recoiled from GUI updaters years ago) but 12.04 nearly pushed me off Kubuntu.

If you need solid stability, I recommend you learn and use btrfs, so that bad updates can be quickly (Greygeek says it takes 3 minutes) backed out. To this point there is the obvious criticism that it's not ready for the GUI user (sudo what?) but it should be. I want a GUI safe mode that the everyperson can click to undo a bad update; not for me but for those who will call me, or post on KFN. Valve's support of Linux for gaming might make this urgent. Alternatively, VMs can do it, but I don't know much about them. There are hints that Microsoft are looking to do something like this.

Even Linux Mint 19 is suggesting that we use Timeshift to take snapshots before doing updates.

Linux users are beta testers ALL THE TIME. That's part of the social contract in exchange for free software.

I used Mint before. From 17 to 17.3. Mint 17 is based on Trusty Tahr, means it was far behind current Ubuntu release.
I never felt like being a beta tester. It worked without any issues.

The updater there categorises the updates by Level. Kernel updates are Level 5 updates there which are disabled per default.

I enabled level 5 updates when spectre/meltdown retpoline patches have been introduced to kernel updates. Actually a kernel needs no update if it works already...

Being a beta tester is based on individual feeling. Also what's 'tolerable'...

The success of Linux distros is also because there is GUI now for common tasks /app...

IMHO if priority of development is to gain more users from windows, tasks such as to update the OS or to make snapshots need to be embedded into working and reliable GUI (I agree here) which is easy to understand.
Mint is going that way...

I can 'learn' btrfs, but do I have the time / motivation to reformat anything again? And what about encryption?
If it's just for doing snapshots I'd use timeshift here as well.

Sometimes I just want to 'work' with an OS and not to try / test new stuff...
I am with 'PC' s since 1982...I like to tinker...
Anything I run is customised in a way. Especially my Android system.
I run 4 different OSes at home...and soon I have to go for w10 additionally but not privately..corporate only...(scientific admin)

All those OS'es get updates and sometimes something self-customized needs to be revised that it works better / to improve it...
If I had only Kubuntu to care I would play much more...

[Qqmike]

IMHO if priority of development is to gain more users from windows, ...

That "if" is "off"! That premise doesn't hold in Kubuntu or Linux, AFAIK. "We" are not consciously trying to gain market share away from Windows. It is nice when it happens, but not the focus of Linux or Kubuntu. And, again, there are many, many posts and threads around here about what a PITA Windows is, including the new and improved Win 10. At times, I get so frustrated with Win 10, I feel it is not only a PITA, but a POS. My wife and I no longer boot into Win 10, except I do so to run updates once a month. I did so yesterday, and I'll tell you, it did not go smoothly in Win 10 update: the menus were not clear, the action/progress wan't clear, the messages I was getting were not clear, I had difficulty navigating back to a task under the Control Panel, the re-booting was unnerving and time-consuming, I spent approx 75 minutes on this task, ... many issues, I'm not listing them all here because I feel in my life I've spent enough prime time dealing with Windows OSs.

[Vaira]

That "if" is "off"! That premise doesn't hold in Kubuntu or Linux, AFAIK. "We" are not consciously trying to gain market share away from Windows. It is nice when it happens, but not the focus of Linux or Kubuntu. And, again, there are many, many posts and threads around here about what a PITA Windows is, including the new and improved Win 10. At times, I get so frustrated with Win 10, I feel it is not only a PITA, but a POS. My wife and I no longer boot into Win 10, except I do so to run updates once a month. I did so yesterday, and I'll tell you, it did not go smoothly in Win 10 update: the menus were not clear, the action/progress wan't clear, the messages I was getting were not clear, I had difficulty navigating back to a task under the Control Panel, the re-booting was unnerving and time-consuming, I spent approx 75 minutes on this task, ... many issues, I'm not listing them all here because I feel in my life I've spent enough prime time dealing with Windows OSs.

I can comprehend very well what you mean.
When people experience that w10 is not the right OS anymore for whatever reason, they need an alternative that can be considered as a replacement, though.
KDE plasma has focus on appearance / design. It is modern and with that modernity there comes a claim that maintenance functions work well and easy by GUI.

To use terminal command lines is considered as going backwards. It does not fit to an OS that lives from cool appearance. That's for me the reason why I was that much upset about discover...and why it is still buggy.

If it's not about trying to gain market share from windows users it's about to offer an alternative for replacement, though.

Privately one can replace windows more easily. I only boot to w7 to use my paid apps there.
But at work I have to use and administer what they use and that will be w10. The migration from w7 is going on right now.

I sooner or later have to deal with w10.
If I have to install w10 on my home PC to learn stuff I'd only use the LTSB (LTSC) release, though.

[GreyGeek]

I've decided to try a new game today. You name a distro and I'll show you why it is not ready for prime time.

I'll start it off with Linux Mint 19 Tera.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmint/c..._obvious_bugs/

See! It's an easy game to play.

And, as a bonus, I'll show you why Win10 is not ready for prime time!
https://www.computerworld.com/articl...y-cortana.html

The amazing thing about Win10 users is that although they pay for their OS, they do volunteer bug triage at various websites, helping M$ for free for an OS they PAY FOR and that isn't ready for prime time! Now, if M$ was giving away Win10 for free I wouldn't mention the obvious disparity, but so many WinXX users coming to Linux believe that any "bug" they find in Linux should be fixed immediately with no input from themselves. They want their cake and eat it too!

As a reminder for those who may have forgotten, or never learned, the tenets of FOSS development:
https://medium.com/gitcoin/the-cathe...r-5b97349fd53b

[claydoh]

Aaaah I see we are retreading the same 'ole arguments in a long rant/defense thread again.

This is a semi annual event, though it is a bit late this cycle

[MadMage999]

I've decided to try a new game today. You name a distro and I'll show you why it is not ready for prime time.

I'll start it off with Linux Mint 19 Tera.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmint/c..._obvious_bugs/

See! It's an easy game to play.

And, as a bonus, I'll show you why Win10 is not ready for prime time!
https://www.computerworld.com/articl...y-cortana.html

The amazing thing about Win10 users is that although they pay for their OS, they do volunteer bug triage at various websites, helping M$ for free for an OS they PAY FOR and that isn't ready for prime time! Now, if M$ was giving away Win10 for free I wouldn't mention the obvious disparity, but so many WinXX users coming to Linux believe that any "bug" they find in Linux should be fixed immediately with no input from themselves. They want their cake and eat it too!

As a reminder for those who may have forgotten, or never learned, the tenets of FOSS development:
https://medium.com/gitcoin/the-cathe...r-5b97349fd53b

Lol. You should do Windows 7. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

[jglen490]

To use terminal command lines is considered as going backwards. It does not fit to an OS that lives from cool appearance. That's for me the reason why I was that much upset about discover...and why it is still buggy.

I'm sorry, but that is so weird in so many ways. The OS is neither cool nor uncool in appearance. The GUI is another story. But there are a lot of GUI applications that call, combine, or directly use command line scripts and compiled programs. The command line interacts with the OS like any other application. It is not backwards by any means, in fact it is extremely powerful, and from that respect it is extremely cool

Discover - again beating a dead horse - IS very definitely, absolutely, flawed. It does one thing accurately and that is to set a notice when software updates are available. It may not work well from that point to actually process the updates, but that is immaterial because there are intrinsically better (in my opinion) and definitely faster ways to process those updates. Unlike Windows, you are not locked in to a specific technology/methodology that has been dictated to you - or me. This OS (Linux) and by extension this distribution (Kubuntu) is the best, coolest, most overall freely usable technology on the planet. And I use Windows at work, have Linux Mint on my personal laptop, and have used in times past a whole bunch of Linux and BSD distributions.

Kubuntu has no suitability issues - at all.

[GreyGeek]

Lol. You should do Windows 7. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

Your wish is my command!

Win7 was, IMO, the best version of Windows that M$ put out. But, as good as it is (was?) it had bad flaws. Even Microsoft warned of "serious problems" in Win7:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonk.../#5006483d7295

Microsoft has made a seemingly small yet completely bizarre tweak to Windows Update on Windows 7 and confirmed it is crippling many users’ PCs.

The cynic in me says M$ did it deliberately to kick users out of Win7 and into Win10.

"Continuing bugs made Win7 so unreliable that M$ recommended temporarily turning off Windows Update"
https://www.computerworld.com/articl...mporarily.html
Sounds like a Discover type bug!

And the users piled on with their own bug reports:
https://www.askvg.com/microsoft-wind...en-bug-report/


So, Win7 is not ready for Prime Time either!