If Linux is to open to customization, why can't I choose what to upgrade?

[GreyGeek]

Worry not. When you began installing widgets like QuickLauncher and populating it, or running HPLIP and seeing its icon in the system tray, you'll find that the icons AND the apps, most of which look like they do under 14.04, almost restores the Plasma4 look. Add to that a nice wallpaper and you've just about buried the Plasma5 "metro" look. Right now, typing this, the only evidence I see of Plasma5 are five icons in the systemtray: KGears, clipboard, printer, speaker and network. Dolphin looks strangely flat setting on the left side of the panel, next to a weird "desktop" icon, but not too much. Chromium looks exactly like it does on 14.04.

On the plus side, the 16.04 desktop is blazing fast, and apps run faster on it as well. On 14.04 Steam's Universe Sandbox^2 ran choppy and forced me to reduce the particles to low or zero. On 16.04 with full features it runs 3-5 times faster. Even with multiple meteorites impacting earth and producing explosions and ejecta the simulation is as smooth as silk. Btfrs runs as well, if not better, on 16.04 than it did on 14.04. The release could have been called Beta-2 but updates have ironed out the worst problems very quickly and the dev crew is doing a top-notch job. Kudos to them! I fretted Plasma5 and even left Kubuntu for Mint for three months but decided I missed Kubuntu and Btrfs more than I disliked Plasma5. Now, I am glad I came back.

[yereverluvinunclebert]

Thankyou for that reply, it is encouraging. Since the introduction of metro the computer world seems to have reverted to the colour beige. We have an interface that would not have looked out of place on a minitel terminal.

I just wish there was more originality on the part of the devs. when I perceive a shift to toward the 'norm' it depresses me.

This was my Windows desktop:




I was aiming to port some more of my widgets to Kubuntu and with that aim in mind my Kubuntu 14 desktop had progressed to this.



Those 3D icons bottom right suited the theme a lot better than the bland corporate ones now sported.

Sorry to hijack the thread with my images but you'll see my point of view and why I hate metro style with such a vengeance.

[Silent Observer]

Bert, you've reiterated, more or less, my original complaint. Woodsmoke almost caught what I was after -- but he goes right back to needing to make my own distro, virtually from the ground up, to be able to (for instance) choose to keep Plasma 4 rather than changing to Plasma 5, the point of which is to let my most powerful machine, my desktop computer, do something with its effortless computing muscle to distinguish itself, visually, from my laptop (half the cores, half the RAM, lower clock), tablet (ARM cores, same number as my desktop but 1/3 slower, 1/4 the RAM), and phone (same specs as my tablet except slightly faster clock -- I bought the tablet to have a keyboard) (Okay, the tablet and phone are Android, not Ubuntu, though I'd switch the tablet if Ubuntu Touch were a little more mature, available for obscure brands of Chinese tablets, and came with a "better" interface than Unity).

Here's a hint for the KDE and Kubuntu dev teams, and for Canonical: NOT EVERYONE WANTS their desktop to look just like their phone. In fact, I'd venture that, if given a choice, most wouldn't want all their devices to look alike. Screen size and format, exclusive of anything else, argue for different interfaces between a phone (4" to 6+" diagonal. most often used in portrait position) and a desktop monitor (19" to 27" diagonal, lots more pixels, almost always in landscape orientation). I'd be very disappointed if my desktop screen showed only a dozen or so icons, as my phone does.

The other issue with changing Plasma versions, though, is that every single developer of themes, decorations, and widgets has to, if not start over from scratch, at least go back through and make changes to accommodate the changes in the underlying API. Why do that, if the old version was still working? IMO, Plasma 4 was just getting to the "debugged" stage. Now we get to start over with Plasma 5, which is nowhere near that (even "in the wild", never mind in Kubuntu where it's pretty much brand new).

I'd also note that I can't just install widgets to make my Plasma 5 desktop look like my Plasma 4 one -- not unless someone can point me to the lunar phase widget that doesn't seem to exist for Plasma 5, or the Galilean moons widget, likewise. And my Keramik window decorations, not there (even though I have -- er, had -- the correct package installed, carried over in the upgrade).

I've made my decision -- I deleted the upgraded partition that had 16.04 in it, and I'm back to 14.04. I'll probably do a clean install of 16.04 in the spare partition, so I can keep an eye on it -- but my next several weekends are probably going to be taken up by trying to fix the only significant problem that "bled back" via using the same user on both with a shared /home: I'm now getting random hard locks in 14.04 too. I'll post elsewhere for troubleshooting help, but I expect to hear either "it's a heat problem" as something I can't refute, or "your installation is damaged in a way it's impossible to find/fix, you need to reinstall clean" -- which would take at least an entire weekend by the time I have all my packages back and my desktop set back up. Pardon me for thinking I could upgrade rather than installing from scratch; apparently, it's my mistake for believing the "you can upgrade" label.

[elijathegold]

Before you re-install Kubuntu run

sudo dpkg --get-selections > installed-packages.txt

save that file on a key or similar and then after installation run

sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade
sudo dpkg --set-selections < /path/to/installed-packages.txt
sudo apt-get -u dselect-upgrade

The first code gives you a list of all installed packages and the second one updates, upgrades and installs all packages you had installed previously. Note this won't give you any custom themes, icons, or colours etc but most users have a separate home partition which you should also backup before re-installing Linux.

Note that this should work for any Debian based distribution but may not work when moving to a new version. I have never tried it for that.

On another note. I am still not understanding what you can't get change in Plasma 5, other than wanting software for Plasma 4 to work without modification? In such a case, contact the author as they may not know it doesn't work due to still using the older OS.

[GreyGeek]

... I've made my decision -- I deleted the upgraded partition that had 16.04 in it, and I'm back to 14.04. ....

And you still have three more years of support! Can't go wrong with that!

BTW, beautiful desktop!

[elijathegold]

Oh dear... I was about to suggest these then I saw the user name, so I guess you already know about them!

[yereverluvinunclebert]

I firmly believe that the desktop GUI should be de-coupled from the underlying o/s. It should be possible (always) to reintroduce the previous version of the software that provides the GUI. It should be tested with the previous version of the GUI as well as the current and a choice should be offered at install time and subsequently be easily switchable from one version or the other.

This ensures the is os usable to all, the previous users, the technically challenged and the technical/gui boffins. It avoids alienation and dischord.

If the only change to the o/s is the GUI then it should NOT be considered a new o/s version but a GUI change.

It can only be considered a GUI upgrade if the previous user's widgets and other functions still work. If not then it is a migration requiring rebuilding/re-coding, recreation.

Otherwise, you enter the dark MS world of creating a new os simply by tweaking the GUI and screwing over the user base.

[elijathegold]

The GUI is decoupled from the OS. You want to Install Gnome? Unity? Cinnamon? Xfce? Mate? Trinity? Openbox? Fluxbox? Ratpoison? then go ahead, you will not have to re-install the operating system.

Maintaining an old version of the GUI is different kettle of fish, a lot of work and isn't really practicable for a small volunteer team. But hey, this is the Free and open source world so why not get a team together, fork the Plasma 4 code base, scratch your itch and put it out there in a PPA?

[edit]This may be a useful read for theming[/edit]

[yereverluvinunclebert]

Yes, but then you are into the old problem of linux fragmentation.

And you don't have to support it... you only have to be sure it works.

Look, the problem of alienation due to GUI changes is a real one and it is the ONE major thing that causes users to switch from one distro to another. The GUI is the place where THEY sit, the world that the USER inhabits. You change it at your peril, make the GUI obsolete and you make the user obsolete too, all the knowledge that they have built up is lost. They feel alienated. I can follow a list of distros that I have abandoned only to arrive at KDE (it didn't feel as fecked up as Ubuntu with that awful interface) - KDE with plasma 4 was an interface that felt desktop-centric.

This is a very old argument but one that GUI designers should really have understood a long time ago. I won't bother to reiterate it any further as I know what the responses will be. Been there done that with Ubuntu. You say, fork it , load plasma 4 but that realistically is not an option for most. That attitude only serves to increase the alienation.

So, I'll leave you with this - that desktop image pictured above is MY GUI - I designed it, I coded it and the result is an eclectic, skeumorphic place to be that deeply appeals to a select few - but the difference is - I don't force it on anyone.

[claydoh]

I am still a little at a loss here, or I am not seeing what the whole fuss is about.

The move from KDE 3 to KDE 4 - now, that was a huge change in the desktop paradigm, as was Gnome 2 to Gnome 3.

KDE 4 came to Kubuntu in 8.10, though 14.10 so 6 years of this.
Plasma 5 comes around, and though it changes the defualt theme, all the ui elements are the same, and are generally configured in the same way using the same tools found in generally the same places as they were in KDE4. How is plasma 5 making the desktop more like mobile than KDE 4 does?

Sure it sucks that a plasma widget written years ago needs to be rewritten or modified but I bet that the kde folks have plenty of hands and ears and other resources that can give pointers on this.


As to choice, yes, linux has a key feature of providing choice. The choice is from the freedom to have the source code available to us so we can ultimately do what we want with it. That does not mean that a group of volunteer developers support and maintain a code that they have decided to move on from, nor does it mean that a tiny group of volunteer packagers/distro creators have to keep and maintain things beyond what they are physically able to handle to keep older things. Except we do, via LTS and LTS Enablement Stacks. Sure, it sucks for some, but if there is an interest in keeping a thing, people usually get together and find a way to do just that See the popular Mate desktop for example. Or the wholly not popular Trinity desktop.

[yereverluvinunclebert]

I am still a little at a loss here, or I am not seeing what the whole fuss is about.

OK, no need to discuss then, we've made a point and I knew there would be no more need to go any further. I can only suggest re-reading and attempt to understand the point of view of others that have a valid opinion and a good suggestion. I understand your opinion very well and it works too, it just doesn't abrogate mine.

[elijathegold]

So, I will attempt a sensible answer from the perspective of a programmer with over thirty years in the trenches. I'll also try not be be boring but make no promises in that regard.

At the most basic level, all software has two things; interface and functionality. I am not going to go into much about functionality here as this thread is mostly about interfaces. These can be as simple as typing ls -al into a terminal and reading a list of files or it can be like Blender. Go ahead, take a look at the interface for Blender, I'll wait. I know, holy crap! right? I don't know for sure how many drugs were involved in the design of that interface, but if I had to make a guess, I would say all of them.

Concentrating on GUI interfaces, the first thing to know about them is that with few exceptions they are built using a toolkit. These contain the elements that make up what you see and often code and IDEs to help you work with them. A few toolkits that most Linux users may have heard of are Gtk, Qk, WxWidgets and TKinter. KDE is built on Qt.

I'm writing this at my desk on a system running Kubuntu 14.04 and later on, I'll finish this in front of the TV with my other laptop running Kubuntu 16.04. Glancing at Kinfocentre, I can see that the Qt version is 4.8.6. This is major version 4, minor version 8 and revision 6. But what do these mean?

Major version: This should change only when there are backwards incompatible API changes; moving from 4 to 5, as Qt did means that software written using the old version, will most probably not work without some major revision.
Minor version: Used when new functionality is added which does not break the API so software written with the old version should still work as expected. Moving from version 4.7 to 4.8 of a tool kit shouldn't break anything.
Revision: Used when making bug fixes to a piece of software where the fixes do not break backwards compatibility. Moving from version 4.8.5 to 4.8.6 of a tool kit should not break anything.

A major version change usually means a new way of doing things. It is possible to adapt the old ways but it's not as simple as re-packaging things, they'll need to be re-written to use the new tool kits, Mate and Trinity (Gnome 2 and KDE 3) are prime examples. It's not a small task but as somebody very wise said in this very thread, it's a FOSS world so there is nothing stopping you scratching your own itch.

[woodsmoke]

LOL I always maintain a previous hard drive fully functional, and updated and actually ran into something that is a "deal breaker" for the old hard drive.

When I updated it...I lost KDE connect which I really, DO need because of the way I work.

So, I was pleased when I installed latest and greatest because KDE connect works.

SOME of this is just that there are SO MANY "moving parts" to making an OS.

One way is that of Microsith which has a gajillion programmers toiling away on tall stools and holding their hands over a candle to keep warm and the volunteer way.

Linux shovels out dozens of NEW RELEASES every year! While Microsith plods through and plods through.

So, to make sure that the previous version has a working KDE, I'm going to reinstall and NOT update...

Because, apparently, there is a disconnect from the QT applications that are pouring into Kubu and the KDE connect app on...

the updated version of the last version....

So, I just plug in the correct hard drive for what I need and go my merry way.

of course.......................the whole SIDE of my tower is always open and the hard drive stands beside it! lol

But.....it did occur to me...

lol Is it that you are missing rocket launcher?

woodjustaskingsmoke

[Silent Observer]

No, I'm not missing Rocket Launcher. I'm missing the look of the old Plasma desktop. The new one doesn't seem to have any options to have decorated title bars, 3D looking scroll bars and window frames, and so forth. Widgets I've had since 2009 are, if not DOA, at least MIA (and the developers have had months of betas in which to update -- but why should they? No one is paying them for this, right?).

I did find that at least some of the running problems I've been having (random lockups) appear to be due to a hardware failure of some kind -- getting RAM errors at certain addresses that persist with four different RAM sticks in either of two slots. I can't blame that on Canonical or KDE. Right now, I'm on my laptop, because the desktop machine won't run long enough to do anything in either 14.04 or 16.04, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to replace the motherboard and CPU (MB is 8 1/2 years old, I guess it's got a right, but I'm not looking forward to spending a bunch of money on either a 6-8 core AMD chip or a Core i* and matching MB (and most likely RAM, too) -- and finding a MB that will accept a Core2Quad is probably a matter of buying used off eBay (and I probably won't find one that supports more than 4 GB RAM).

[yereverluvinunclebert]

I'll install on 16 on a virtual system on Windows just to get that single plasmoid running...

But, for the moment I'll wipe 16 and revert to 14. It was just a lot more 'me' - my feedback is that the mobile-phone-look is for Windows mobile phones (has anyone heard how badly the Windows mobile phone are selling? how badly the surface RT did, how badly received the metro interface was on Windows 8?) - so regardless of current trendy interfaces I will remain happy at least for the next few years. Pity though.