If Linux is to open to customization, why can't I choose what to upgrade?

[claydoh]

It may be little difference in terminology and in the end result, but 'ppa' has a certain expectations as opposed to "someone's third-party apt repository".
It has nothing to do with quality, for sure, but rather who maintains and secures it.

I guess "ppa" can be used much like band-aid or kleenex.
I may be being persnickety, which is a new-ish thing for me :0

Trinity have full on iso images using various distors as a base which might make it easier to check out.

[woodsmoke]

Elija

YES!!! I did the whole Trinity thing about.... 6 years ago for quite a while!!!

One of it's raison d'etre , back then, to try to not use any, as in any, kind of "encumbered" code.

However, even then it worked GREAT!!! very XPish as it were.

Did not come with "codecs" one had to install them ones'self, but it worked fine.

woodsmoke

[GreyGeek]

KDE3 was released in April of 2002 and reached EOL in August of 2008, the summer I retired. I used it from the beta until KDE4 beta was released.
The latest release of Trinity on an Ubuntu base can be downloaded from here or their LiveCD page here, except that Ubuntu's, Debian and Q4OS are the only ISO pages that load and display.

[Qqmike]

Going back to Woody's post #11 about art, technical issues, trends, and such, I must say that when I first installed this new Plasma look, I was shocked, like many here--hit first by the splash screen for log-in and Desktop. (I installed 15.04 as part of a test EFI dual-boot.) In fact, I thought, "OK, this is not permanent, it's only a temporary fill-in, a place holder, for something to come." Well, it was kind of a permanent 'flat' look, as we know. It is certainly true that 'we' all do, indeed, have different tastes and expectations for 'look and feel'! I'm not really fussy, as you guys know, about trivial details re apps and such. But it is nice to use something that feels--more or less--to sighted users, somewhat comfortable wrt the DE.

Interesting how many of us--myself included--still refer to the look-and-feel of XP as being, more or less, acceptable!

[vinnywright]

As it happens, I still have a working 14.04, having had the foresight to clone the OS partition before upgrading. I'm getting a little bleed-over from 16.04 to 14.04, because I have a separate /home partition and used the same username in both -- but if I abandon 16.04 I presume I can adjust settings in 14.04 and undo the minor changes.

and this was probably one of the reasons for your problems ,,,,,,,,when you share a ~/ directory/partition between 2 installations like this you can (and most likely will ) have conflicting configs .

was this ~/directory/partition used by 14.04 before you upgraded ,,,,,,,,,,their were a lot of changes between them .

VINNY

[Silent Observer]

I hadn't realized there was a lot of actual coding (C or something like it?) in making up a theme like my beloved Keramik. I'd gotten the impression it was more like building a vector/bitmap art, and then planting that in existing code (roughly akin to DATA statements from when I programmed in FORTRAN and BASIC back in the mid 1970s to early 1980s).

Back up thread a way -- I wasn't referring to the changes form Windows 7 to 8 to 10, I was referring to Microsoft's statement that Windows 10 is now a mature product, and there probably won't be another totally new Windows (a position Apple has been in for so long with OSX that the early versions had to be compiled to run on two or three different processor architectures to accommodate legacy 68K family and PowerPC machines). Linux (or at least Ubuntu) is clearly not at that stage yet.

No, Vinny, I don't think reusing my user ~/ is the reason 16.04 wouldn't initially start the GUI -- if that were the case, I'd have expected 16.04 to work and semi-permanently break 14.04. Yes, I'm aware that's a bad idea, but this was supposed to be an upgrade, not a new multi-boot install to use the same ~/ folder. The multi-boot came about because I cloned the partition before upgrading, then cloned the upgraded partition before restoring the clone of 14.04, and then got the 16.04 upgraded folder to boot and run (sort of).

It's funny how you can only find the "this worked fine for me" posts until you try to do it yourself, and then you find all the "this broke my everything" threads.

[GreyGeek]

I hadn't realized there was a lot of actual coding (C or something like it?) in making up a theme like my beloved Keramik. I'd gotten the impression it was more like building a vector/bitmap art, and then planting that in existing code (roughly akin to DATA statements from when I programmed in FORTRAN and BASIC back in the mid 1970s to early 1980s).

Back when I was using MS Virtual Basic I got the notion that I could design some of my own graphic elements. That's when I learned that an extensive background and training in Math and Physics didn't replace artistic talent and vision, which I didn't have, so I abandon that idea and stuck with using GUI RAD tools and writing code.

Back up thread a way -- I wasn't referring to the changes form Windows 7 to 8 to 10, I was referring to Microsoft's statement that Windows 10 is now a mature product, and there probably won't be another totally new Windows (a position Apple has been in for so long with OSX that the early versions had to be compiled to run on two or three different processor architectures to accommodate legacy 68K family and PowerPC machines). Linux (or at least Ubuntu) is clearly not at that stage yet.

MS claiming Windows maturity is quite a reach considering all the complaints filling user help forums. Many of the listed problems are familiar, and seem more related to hardware incompatibilities. So, even Win10 is not "there" yet, and probably never will be.

....
It's funny how you can only find the "this worked fine for me" posts until you try to do it yourself, and then you find all the "this broke my everything" threads.

The "this worked fine for me" group is probably running common compatible hardware while the other group is not. There is a huge difference between the hurdles that Linux faces compared to Win10. PC and hardware vendors get copies of Win10 along with Microsoft's internal documentation so they can customize Win10 or their hardware to work well (MS Certified) with their hardware (most of the time). Linux does not. FOSS coders have to reverse engineer (green room) most peripheral devices in order to make them work with Linux. Do any peripheral vendors supply documentation to Linux device driver coders? HP and NVIDIA, for example, supply binary drivers with limited capabilities on Linux, compared to Windows drivers, but most hardware makers seem afraid of incurring Microsoft's wrath or don't want to be bothered supporting what they think is a small market. That's their loss. For over 10 years, for example, HP printers have worked "out of the box" on my Linux installations. I doubt that I will even consider any other brand, unless HP goes out of business.

[elijathegold]

I hadn't realized there was a lot of actual coding (C or something like it?) in making up a theme like my beloved Keramik. I'd gotten the impression it was more like building a vector/bitmap art, and then planting that in existing code (roughly akin to DATA statements from when I programmed in FORTRAN and BASIC back in the mid 1970s to early 1980s).

I think it depends on what you are creating the theme for. I have my own window decorations (modestly called true perfection) which is a "mash-up" of three other themes that weren't quite right That theme consists of several vector images and a fairly straight forward rcfile. If you are going to get into making widgets to theme your desktop then you'll need QML and (C++ or JavaScript). I haven't found a way to create new widget sets from scratch yet; by that I mean things like buttons, panels, progress and scroll bars etc, but I suspect it will involve the same technologies as widgets.

Back up thread a way -- I wasn't referring to the changes form Windows 7 to 8 to 10, I was referring to Microsoft's statement that Windows 10 is now a mature product, and there probably won't be another totally new Windows (a position Apple has been in for so long with OSX that the early versions had to be compiled to run on two or three different processor architectures to accommodate legacy 68K family and PowerPC machines). Linux (or at least Ubuntu) is clearly not at that stage yet.

I seem to remember one of the computing trade magazines printing something where Microsoft said pretty much the same thing about Windows 8. That may have worked if everyone hadn't started calling it "this generation's ME". Windows will continue to change, through revisions and versions but will be less noticeable than in the free software world as it's pace of change is so much slower. A product needs a long enough shelf life to generate good profits after all.

No, Vinny, I don't think reusing my user ~/ is the reason 16.04 wouldn't initially start the GUI -- if that were the case, I'd have expected 16.04 to work and semi-permanently break 14.04. Yes, I'm aware that's a bad idea, but this was supposed to be an upgrade, not a new multi-boot install to use the same ~/ folder. The multi-boot came about because I cloned the partition before upgrading, then cloned the upgraded partition before restoring the clone of 14.04, and then got the 16.04 upgraded folder to boot and run (sort of).

It's funny how you can only find the "this worked fine for me" posts until you try to do it yourself, and then you find all the "this broke my everything" threads.

I learned the hard way many years ago that sharing a home directory between Linux installs can cause significant problems. 99% of the time it should be fine but when it isn't it really isn't. I had many version clashes between Fedora Core (as it was then) and Slackware where the structure of data and configuration files were different between the application versions running on each distro. I learned to give each distro it's own home directory and keep my data on a separate partition which I would mount as a sub-directory of home.

[Silent Observer]

I learned the hard way many years ago that sharing a home directory between Linux installs can cause significant problems. 99% of the time it should be fine but when it isn't it really isn't. I had many version clashes between Fedora Core (as it was then) and Slackware where the structure of data and configuration files were different between the application versions running on each distro. I learned to give each distro it's own home directory and keep my data on a separate partition which I would mount as a sub-directory of home.

Yep, I learned a similar lesson with, as I recall, MEPIS and something else (maybe even my first install of Kubuntu). As noted, this was supposed to be an upgrade, not a parallel installation. I had no expectation of having to go back to 14.04 to get anything done, and after that fiasco, I had little expectation of getting 16.04 to start up into Plasma -- but when it did, the only things I can see where it bled over are in the color scheme (it actually seems to have fixed a problem I've had for a while where I can't see what I type in certain kinds of entry fields). I presume/hope that there are separate ~/.kde4 and ~/.kde5 folders in there. I haven't looked, but I presume there must be, else 14.04 would have required me to either create a new user or delete the entire KDE config folder (to be automatically recreated) in order to log in after installing 16.04. Instead, I have this tiny, little, fairly livable crossover (some setting that's not stored in the KDE config folders, I guess). It's like buying a new car and finding out the old one has quit burning oil...

Interesting you should talk about hardware. I guess I'm a "bad example" case. I've got a computer that I originally built in 2003; since then, it's had all the hard disks and motherboard replaced due to falling out of the back of a van onto concrete (it ran for a while, but stuff eventually started to die). The old Windows partitions are numerous, because they're cloned forward from when I could afford a new hard disk and that was the fast way to get back up and running with the extra space. One of my platter drives isn't even used because I cloned it onto my SSD when I got that, and have kept the old installs of Kubuntu and MEPIS on it as backups (actually had to boot into that install of MEPIS a while back to fix GRUB when I was in process of learning that cloning a drive with KDE Paritition Editor gives it a new UUID -- and nothing else would boot, and I couldn't get to the forums where I needed to look for the answer with the browser that comes on the Live USB).

All that said, my computer is fairly standard these days -- Core2Quad, MSI motherboard, matched RAM sticks, a fairly current nVidia video card, onboard sound (which nothing has ever had trouble with), the only really oddball thing I've got is a pretty old PCI SCSI card that runs my scanner -- and it's the big name (which has slipped my mind at the moment). One IDE and two SATA drives, one of the latter is an SSD. The oldest hardware in there (that's hooked up) is the CD-RW drive, and their interface has been standard so long I think it can vote.

Bottom line is, for those of us who don't want our desktop computer to look and act just like a tablet or phone, what are we supposed to do? Go researching for another distro again, after researching to find this one just about the time the last LTS release came out (with avoiding the need to clean install every couple years as a qualification point)? This machine has several times the processing power, RAM, and tens of times the storage my phone and tablet have, and about twice the pixel count -- why am I not permitted to spend some minuscule fraction of that making it prettier? Making it different from my portable devices?

Yeah, I know, I'm ranting. I did the same thing after finally finding the work slacks I really liked -- only to have Sears discontinue them.

Linux is the only one of the current operating systems that has the possibility of lasting forever -- because it isn't tied to some commercial entity that will eventually, inevitably come down. Why does that have to be its biggest failing, too?

[Qqmike]

Yeah, I know, I'm ranting. I did the same thing after finally finding the work slacks I really liked -- only to have Sears discontinue them.

Since you brought it up ... What changed in America? Used to be, perhaps with great research and trial and error, you'd locate a product that was perfect for you, and you stuck with it and you could count on it, for years. Nowadays, even "best" products come and go. Is it inept marketing idiots? Execs who who are out of touch? And packaging engineers, many should be hung. Can't hardly open anything now, not easily, sometimes not without scissors or a sharp knife blade in hand. Am I just getting old? Something DID change around here (USA, that would be). What happened to the rule, "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!"?

[TWPonKubuntu]

@Qqmike

I suspect (being the suspicious type) that the income stream was drying up for well built products. So they make it appear that the "old" product is broken (mostly be changing the box it fits in) Our (your's and mine) software runs on the various base platforms and when that platform changes, there is the opportunity to declare a "break" and offer the latest "upgrade" to fix it... Rinse and repeat until the expense report bottom line looks better to the bean counters.

Paranoia? Probably, but that doesn't mean it ain't true. Planned obsolescence is now the 'merican way of business.

I need a drink now.

[Qqmike]

I need a drink now.

Well, I just had two, and it didn't help.

[woodsmoke]

Well, hmmm, I just LOOKED at the title of this thread again.

Sometimes I see but I don't LOOK.

Why can't I choose what to upgrade?

Well, the term "upgrade" can be taken in two ways.

a) to "upgrade the whole system"
b) to use the word "upgrade" sloppily and to mean "update".

I think that we can all agree that one CAN choose, if one wants to actually LEARN what each and every thing that is being "updated" is going to affect, ......those things which one wants to "update".

That, precisely, is why one USED TO be able to download the updates to disk and then choose at one's leisure.

Of course that takes some CLI skills, but there are distros which provide that option.

As to the pure use of the term "upgrade" as in "update the whole system from a prior state to a significantly different new state", well........that implies that the WHOLE thing has to be taken en-toto.

But, wait, if one does, indeed, want to "edit" the "upgrade" then one CAN so do.... with the caveat that one:

a) downloads the upgrade to a convenient storage area

One can do that by "arrowing up" through the repo until one gets to the folder which stores the releases on a remote server and downloads it to the convenient storage area.

b) One then has to actually know the programming language so that one can search out the particular packages in question. One will then open the OS in "an editor" and view the gajillion lines of code and one can remove and replace all that one wants.

Back when we did this in "basic" there were not THAT many lines of code! lol A for-next loop here, an peek and poke there! lol

c) One will also have to know which other packages are dependencies on the package(s) in question

d) IF said packages are "independent", except in some tangential way, of the rest of the "upgrade" then one "could' replace said packages with "other packages".

THAT, is precisely what the developer of a "new" distro does.

One has to get into the guts of the code and know what can be removed and replaced and what cannot.

AS A POINT OF TANGENTIAL FACT.......THAT is precisely how my boy became the "very tight" coder that he is today.... He took the old C-64 visual basic editor and went at the thing... the high school loaned him an old....as in ..............oooooooollllllldddddd IBM don't remember the name and he went at that...

He did NOT learn to code, except in a very minor way, from ANY "school class" that he took either in high school or college. What he learned in "classes" was practicing with the particular programming "language", but he learned to CODE by his merry young self...

And that is PRECISELY why there is so much "bloat" nowadays...in Windblows stuff, because nowadays "programmers" are usually "buying code" in packages and throwing it at the structure to see if it sticks.....kind of like spaghetti....

hmmmm there used to be a derisive term for bad code that it looked like spaghetti... lol

That was one of the "reasons" that the ACT test went to PASCAL for the test on programming.....several kids aced the ACT test using "plain BASIC" but didn't "do it the right way" and there was a big rukus because they had the "result" just didn't get there the politically correct (for the seventies) way.... PASCAL required a certain structure, the kids got their scholarships BTW

I was involved, as a primary tester, of a distro which was, literally, made from the skin out so I got to actually VIEW the code and changes made thereto.

Now, this back in the day of much less complex OSs, such as Xandros or the original DSL or such, but, one CAN make changes, and sometimes the changes bork the OS and sometimes not...

lol....

woodwouldnottouchchangingthOSNOWADAYSwithastickbut ...well...ok...smoke

[GreyGeek]

Today, using modern GUI RAD tools like the QT API along with qtcreator and gut for version control makes writing GUI front ends to databases, graphics cards, printers, networks,etc., a LOT easier, but one must still know how to obtain, read and interpret documentation for such devices. Also, to create an app for a distro it is usually best to use the tools the distro developers use, and they may have a tendency to be older, less friendly and highly configured for their purposes. And, what I told my students still applies: you cannot program what you don't know. Want to write a graphical simulation of the flight of a projectile? You have to know calculus. Want to write a GAAP program? You must know accounting.

[yereverluvinunclebert]

I created an account here just so I could post. First post is a complaint and I feel bad about that. I have really enjoyed the experience of Kubuntu 14.

I have been running Kubuntu 14.n LTS for the last year or so and it has been a really enjoyable experience. Straight-forward to use and easy to theme. My one reason for running Kubuntu was to test and develop further the Steampunk Orrery plasmoid that you'll see on kde-apps.

I've been told that the plasmoid no longer functions on KDE 16 so I decided to upgrade 14 to 16 just to fault find and fix the plasmoid.

Aftre the upgrade as I booted I expected to see the familiar KDE desktop look and feel but I was disappointed. Kubuntu 16 LTS appears to be simply following in the footsteps of Microsoft with its current bland corporate offering that it originally called 'metro'. I see Kubuntu following in the same steps as Microsoft in their search for a combined desktop/laptop workspace.

Let me tell you now - the combine workspace does not work on desktops. It annoys and it takes the Mickey out of desktop users.

I feel sad that you've gone down this path and even worse now I find that you don't offer an option on the interface to provide the more-desktop specific version that version 14 LTS sported. Have you never heard of the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none"? Microsoft has and is finding the backlash hurts. A desktop focussed workspace is one that is optimal for the desktop, please remember that.

Disappointed to find that 'metro' paradigm here, I know that if I wanted Windows 8 look and feel I could switch on my windows 8 device. For Kubuntu I simply expected a more confident and mature approach, rather than mere copying, I had hoped that the Kubuntu design/dev team would come with more distinctive and less copycat design.

I feel let down and slightly less inclined to use Kubuntu for the task I had planned for it as it does not suit my distinct requirements for a look and feel. That simple requirement being - I want a traditional desktop. Why is that such a strange thing to want these days? Kubuntu Mobile? Just Why?