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    Plasma4 is better than Plasma5. [detailed list]

    I'm aware that I might come across as sounding like this guy. But when it comes to computers, I like to be a control freak and I loved KDE Plasma for letting me be such. But with the switch to Plasma5, it just seems like I no longer have complete control over my desktop, and that's really annoying.

    In my opinion, Plasma5 is still in an alpha state. (not even beta) The only (two) ways that I noticed that Plasma5 is better than Plasma4 are definitely NOT enough to justify use of Plasma5—they are very minor advantages. However, all of the ways that Plasma5 is worse than Plasma4 are, in my view, major issues. All around, Plasma5 is just straight up worse than Plasma4.

    It seems that Plasma5 was developed on the philosophy of “change for the sake of change.” To me, that's stupidity. Don't change something unless there's a reason to change it. (Similarly, I see no reason for X to be replaced, but that's a different issue.) Otherwise, certain things will inevitably just end up worse. The “change for the sake of change” philosophy is what ruined Gnome (when they went from Gnome2 to Gnome3), and now it seems like the same philosophy has ruined KDE Plasma.

    Before I start, I feel the need to pre-emptively answer the question of “Why don't you just use 14.04LTS with Plasma4 if you think Plasma5 is so bad?”. The answer is that I need to use the 15.04 release in order for my touchpad to have the the functionality of scrolling with a middle-click and trackpoint drag. (That feature is very important to me. That feature alone made me come back to *buntu after using openSUSE for about 1.5 years.)

    ================================================== =========

    Ways in which Plasma4 > Plasma5

    (1) taskbar's clock display

    I like my taskbar clock to display the following things:

    --hour (always with two digits, even when it's <=9)
    --minutes (always with two digits, even when it's <=9)
    --seconds (always with two digits, even when it's <=9)
    --AM/PM indicator (although 24-hour time is ideal, I need to use 12-hour.)
    --day of the week (as a 3-letter abbreviation, with the first letter capitalized)
    --month (as a 3-letter abbreviation, with the first letter capitalized)
    --day of the month (always with two digits, even when it's <=9)

    For example, I consider the following display to be the ideal:
    04:17:57 PM Sat Jul 04

    In XFCE (which is what I use now because Plasma5 sucks), I can get that display very easily: I just shove “%r %a %b %d” (without the quotes) into the configuration textbox.

    But there is no way in Plasma5 to get a clock display with all of the items I listed. Actually there is, but the only way to do it is to get a two-line display with the second line in a very small text size. But in Plasma4, a two-line clock display had both lines of the same text size, which is obviously preferable because if one is smaller than the other, than the smaller one is simply not readable in a comfortable way. (Resizing the taskbar height should not be necessary.)

    (2) spacing between icons in the Folder / Folderview widget

    See here.

    (3) folderview: need additional click to browse subfolders

    Say that you have a Folder widget for the folder ~/Desktop. One of the nice things about the Folder/Folderview widget is that in addition to allowing you to open a file that is in ~/Desktop, you can also open a file that is in a subdirectory of ~/Desktop. In Plasma4, you did that by a mouse-hover over the subfolder, which then displayed the contents of that subfolder. But in Plasma5, a mouse-hover is not sufficient—you also have to click on that little diagonal arrow to get the subfolder display.

    (4) Plasma4 has a QuickLaunch widget. Plasma5 does not.

    Title says it all.

    (5) Plasma5 gives way too many notifications.

    For example, when I remove a widget, I don't need the systray to give me a notification that I just removed a widget. That's pointless and stupid.

    (6) “Show Desktop” button

    In Plasma4, the “show desktop” widget (that could be added to the taskbar) worked exactly as it's supposed to: click it and everything's minimized. But in Plasma5, I sometimes had to click it twice before it minimized anything. Clicking it once (in certain circumstances) didn't do anything. And once you did get it to show the desktop, the desktop showed faint pictures of minimized windows, so it wasn't as simple as just minimizing everything. That seems to mean that once the “show desktop” button was activated, it had a purpose slightly different than just minimizing everything—I find that undesirable.

    I want the “show desktop” button/widget to have exactly the following two functions and nothing more:

    —minimize all the windows on the current workspace when I click it exactly once (This shouldn't require two clicks, as it sometimes does in Plasma5.)
    --unminimize the windows that were minimized on the first click if I perform a second click

    (7)Klipper item on the systray

    Klipper in Plasma4 was great, but Plasma5 screwed it up:

    --It got renamed to "Clipboard." That falls into the category of change for the sake of change, with no good reason.
    --One of the features I loved about the Plasma4 Klipper was that it allows you to make a previously copied item the current selection. As an example: Suppose you copied the phrase "once upon" to the clipboard and then after that, you copied the phrase "a midnight dreary" to the clipboard. A paste action would give you "a midnight dreary." But suppose you wanted to go back to having "once upon" as the current clipboard selection so that a paste action would spit out that phrase. In Plasma4, you could do this very easily--just click on that scissors icon in the systray and then click on the item you want--it then becomes the current selection so that it gets invoked with a paste action. But the Klipper/Clipboard in Plasma5 took away that functionality!!

    ================================================== =========

    Ways in which Plasma5 > Plasma4

    (1) Plasma5 is slightly faster.

    Performance isn't generally something that I care about (as long as it's at least reasonably fast, which Plasma4 was), but I thought it worth noting.

    (2) In Plasma5, the kickoff menu has a search bar. In Plasma4, it didn't.

    I'd probably still use Alt+F2 anyway, but it makes sense for the kickoff menu to have a search bar.

    ================================================== =========
    Ways in which XFCE > Plasma

    Now that I've been working predominantly in XFCE, I've noticed two advantages it has over Plasma. (The clock formatting that I mentioned earlier is not in this list because it is a way in which XFCE > Plasma5 but it does not qualify as a way in which XFCE > Plasma4.)

    (1) XFCE has the option of adding Directory Menus. Plasma does not.

    can be added to a panel/taskbar. Looks like this.

    In the screenshot I linked to, I set the Directory Menu to operator on /. But you can set it to any directory, including, of course, ~/. In the screenshot, you can see that I have two different directory menus on my taskbar, each referencing a different directory. The XFCE Directory Menu feature is really cool.

    (2) Notes

    The XFCE panel item called “Notes” (screenshot here) has two advantages over the Plasma “Notes widget”:

    --it has tabs

    --it can be added to a taskbar/panel, whereas the Plasma notes widget can only reside on the desktop

    The significance of this advantage is two-fold:
    --it can be accessed whenever your taskbar is visible; you don't need to get to your desktop first
    --the contents can be hidden. This feature is missing from the Plasma Notes widget, which ought to (but doesn't) have a button to hide/unhide the contents. When I let someone use my laptop (back when I ran Plasma), I don't mind that they were able to see what I had written in the Notes widget, but it would have been preferable to have been able to hide it.

    (3) Mouse Manager

    I really like XFCE's mouse settings manager (package name is xfce4-mouse-settings)

    It gives more options than all the other GUI mouse managers I've seen before. (Edit: gpointing-device-settings is also pretty full-featured, but I still prefer XFCE's.) Also, it allows you to set a different set of settings for each one of your input devices--that should have been an obvious feature, but the XFCE mouse manager is the only GUI mouse manager I've seen that gives you this power. (It enables me to have different settings for all three of my mouse input devices: trackpoint, touchpad, and actual mouse.)

    ================================================== =========

    Phew. I needed to get that rant out.

    My lists are not intended to be exhaustive--these are just the things that stuck out in my mind. If other folks here are so inclined, I invite them to add to my lists by replying to this thread.
    Last edited by rybnik; Jul 06, 2015, 12:59 AM.
    I run Kubuntu 18.04 LTS.

    #2
    That's a good rant for the Soapbox, the way it should be, detailed, rational, rather than a whiny, general, nebulous, not-helpful, not-informative rant.

    I think some of this has to do with how Kubuntu is "positioned" philosophically, don't you? It tends to be cutting edge, perhaps even when it shouldn't try to be ;-) I agree with you that changes should not change things to be not as good as they were, changes should build on what works and make things work even better (or leave some things alone that work well), and not start all over from scratch.

    Mint KDE is upfront about this, they make no attempt to ride the tests of innovation for the sake of innovation. They stick with the LTS as a base. In Kubuntu, you are always safe with the LTS, also.

    Some of our members, anticipating changes in Kubuntu's future, are toying with Debian Jessie. Stable, yes. But it sure as sh* doesn't look (to me) like an OS suitable for the average, Linux, individual user. Way too detailed, techie, a DIY puzzle. There's a reason it has triggered so many derivative OSs for people in search of something they can understand and use.

    Anyway, I'm deviating from your OP, your post is good, rational, informative -- a good example for others here who wish to vent their rants and issues.
    An intellectual says a simple thing in a hard way. An artist says a hard thing in a simple way. Charles Bukowski

    Comment


      #3
      OK, interesting rant there rybnik.

      But there are a couple of things which I disagree with regarding Plasma4 (which I use as I'm still using 14.04 as my everyday desktop).

      You say Plasma4 doesn't have a search bar? This is mine:
      Click image for larger version

Name:	Kubuntu 14-04 (Trusty) KickStart.jpeg
Views:	1
Size:	29.8 KB
ID:	642930

      Maybe the Plasma notes widget can't be on the panel but the KNotes app certainly can:
      Click image for larger version

Name:	Kubuntu 14-04 (Trusty) KNotes.jpeg
Views:	1
Size:	9.6 KB
ID:	642931

      I must say though that the XFCE notes app looks interesting, I like the tabs idea.
      Desktop PC: Intel Core-i5-4670 3.40Ghz, 16Gb Crucial ram, Asus H97-Plus MB, 128Gb Crucial SSD + 2Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 HDD running Kubuntu 18.04 LTS and Kubuntu 14.04 LTS (on SSD).
      Laptop: HP EliteBook 8460p Core-i5-2540M, 4Gb ram, Transcend 120Gb SSD, currently running Deepin 15.8 and Manjaro KDE 18.

      Comment


        #4
        Btw, what I meant to imply in my Post #2 is that because of the way rybnik structures his "rant," other users can respond constructively, in detail, perhaps even indicating some fixes or known bug issues, or amplifying his points with other specific examples.

        (btw, ... which is what you have done well Rod J :-) just to clarify that this post isn't a criticism of your post ...)
        An intellectual says a simple thing in a hard way. An artist says a hard thing in a simple way. Charles Bukowski

        Comment


          #5
          I mostly agree. Plasma 5 is very much beta quality and from my perspective, it's like taking one step forward but two steps backwards. I've said it before and I'll say it again. KDE should not have listed any KDE 5 software as stable and ready to replace KDE 4 versions until all features were at minimum re-implemented.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by QQmike
            That's a good rant for the Soapbox, the way it should be, detailed, rational, rather than a whiny, general, nebulous, not-helpful, not-informative rant.
            Thank you.

            Originally posted by QQmike
            I think some of this has to do with how Kubuntu is "positioned" philosophically, don't you? It tends to be cutting edge, perhaps even when it shouldn't try to be ;-)
            I had always associated that philosophy with Fedora. I was unaware Kubuntu also thought that way.

            Originally posted by QQmike
            Mint KDE is upfront about this, they make no attempt to ride the tests of innovation for the sake of innovation. They stick with the LTS as a base.
            You piqued my curiosity. ;-) I'm wget'ing the iso for Mint 17.1 KDE right now. (The most recent release, 17.2, does not yet have a KDE version.)

            Originally posted by QQmike
            Some of our members, anticipating changes in Kubuntu's future, are toying with Debian Jessie.
            I might do the same, except that my touchpad requires that I have a very recent kernel. (or a very recent something. All I know is that my touchpad works in 15.04 but not 14.04. I'm anxious to see whether it'll work in Mint 17.1.

            Originally posted by Rod J
            You say Plasma4 doesn't have a search bar? This is mine
            As we all know, Plasma (both 4 and 5) have two different available layouts for the kickoff menu. I forget what they're called, so I'll just refer to them as default and nondefault. In Plasma5, both the default and nondefault layouts have a search bar. In Plasma4, only the default layout has a search bar.

            I had forgotten that the default Plasma4 kickoff had a search bar (Thanks for pointing that out.) because when I ran Plasma4, switching the kickoff menu to the nondefault layout was one of the first things I did upon a fresh install.

            Originally posted by Rod J
            Maybe the Plasma notes widget can't be on the panel but the KNotes app certainly can
            Thanks for pointing that out too. Could you post a screenshot of what the KNotes app looks like when it's opened, please? I'm curious.
            When I ran Plasma, I used the Notes widget but I didn't know about this "KNotes app".

            Originally posted by QQmike
            Btw, what I meant to imply in my Post #2 is that because of the way rybnik structures his "rant," other users can respond constructively, in detail, perhaps even indicating some fixes or known bug issues, or amplifying his points with other specific examples.
            I think that this was already clear in your post#2. Regardless, I appreciate the compliment.

            Originally posted by dtr
            I mostly agree. Plasma 5 is very much beta quality and from my perspective, it's like taking one step forward but two steps backwards.
            I agree with the part about "two steps backwards" but I have no idea why you credit Plasma5 as "taking one step forward." Can you name any significant advantage of Plasma5, compared to Plasma4? (The two that I listed are very minor, and one of them was half-nullified was Rod J.)

            Originally posted by dtr
            KDE should not have listed any KDE 5 software as stable and ready to replace KDE 4 versions until all features were at minimum re-implemented.
            Right on!
            I run Kubuntu 18.04 LTS.

            Comment


              #7
              [post deleted, as I incorporated it into my first post]
              Last edited by rybnik; Jul 06, 2015, 01:03 AM.
              I run Kubuntu 18.04 LTS.

              Comment


                #8
                When I first started using KDE, Plasma4 was the current version. But I was amused to find this thread from 2008 that features someone complaining about the switch from Plasma3 to Plasma4. I love Plasma4 but perhaps I also would have complained about it if I too had started with Plasma3. That gives me hope for Plasma5.

                Anyway, I would rank my preference of desktop environments as follows:

                Plasma4 > XFCE > MATE/gnome2 > LXDE > Plasma5

                Unity and Gnome3 don't even make the list because they're both garbage. Regardless, I refuse to use any desktop that does not have a taskbar.

                As for Cinnamon, I haven't used it enough to make a judgement about it.

                It's a shame that the klyde project was abandoned.
                Last edited by rybnik; Jul 05, 2015, 02:20 PM.
                I run Kubuntu 18.04 LTS.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I agree Plasma5 as in Kubuntu 15.04 is a pale reflection of what Plasma/ KDE4 offers.
                  Additionally it is quite unstable.

                  Personally I usually know which day of the week it is but I do like the localised calender KDE4 has and is (still?) missing in version 5.
                  Another one, the fact history is failing in Muon is another inexcusable 'feature'.

                  The missing QuickLaunch and regressions in the once-great Gwenview (Kipi) are inexcusable, going by the progress of Plasma 5 over the past few months it will not even be ready by October.
                  In my not so humble view the KDE3/4 transition was less problematic but even then I continued using the old version for almost a year until KDE5 panned out.

                  Please mark this: I'm not moaning about developers, I am objecting against pushing this alpha stuff out as a 'release'.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by rybnik View Post
                    (Similarly, I see no reason for X to be replaced, but that's a different issue.)
                    Uh, yes, X absolutely must be done away with. It's a security nightmare -- the code is riddled with vulnerabilities, some that have existed for years. Take a look through the xorg-devel mailing list, you'll see some whoppers.

                    More that that, X has some security architecture flaws. There is no isolation between applications -- one malicious application could take over the windows of all other applications, steal/insert keystrokes, observe contents, etc. Drivers run as root; a vulnerability in the X stack could allow an application to elevate its privileges.

                    The code is ancient, almost 25 years old in spots; few people really understand how it works. Lots of assumptions made then are simply no longer valid in modern computing.

                    X (and Wayland) developer Daniel Stone and Eric Griffith explain why it's time to replace X with a modern protocol and API.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      @SteveRiley

                      Noted. My only source of information on the matter had been the "Linux sucks" talk by Bryan Lunduke. You are evidently much more knowledgeable about X than I am.
                      I run Kubuntu 18.04 LTS.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Revisions that I made to my original post since I first made this thread:

                        --#7 on the Plasma4 > Plasma5 list (I can't believe I forgot to write about how Plasma5 screwed up Klipper!)
                        --#3 on the XFCE > Plasma list
                        Last edited by rybnik; Jul 06, 2015, 01:13 AM.
                        I run Kubuntu 18.04 LTS.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by rybnik View Post
                          My only source of information on the matter had been the "Linux sucks" talk by Bryan Lunduke.
                          Be sure to watch his "Linux doesn't suck" video, too.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by rybnik View Post
                            (7)Klipper item on the systray

                            Klipper in Plasma4 was great, but Plasma5 screwed it up:

                            --It got renamed to "Clipboard." That falls into the category of change for the sake of change, with no good reason.
                            --One of the features I loved about the Plasma4 Klipper was that it allows you to make a previously copied item the current selection. As an example: Suppose you copied the phrase "once upon" to the clipboard and then after that, you copied the phrase "a midnight dreary" to the clipboard. A paste action would give you "a midnight dreary." But suppose you wanted to go back to having "once upon" as the current clipboard selection so that a paste action would spit out that phrase. In Plasma4, you could do this very easily--just click on that scissors icon in the systray and then click on the item you want--it then becomes the current selection so that it gets invoked with a paste action. But the Klipper/Clipboard in Plasma5 took away that functionality!!
                            I successfully use this feature multiple times a day, in plasma 5.


                            Sent from my LG G4
                            Last edited by claydoh; Jul 06, 2015, 12:07 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              (4) Plasma4 has a QuickLaunch widget. Plasma5 does not.

                              Title says it all.
                              Not yet but scheduled for plasma 5.4, iirc

                              Sent from my LG G4

                              Comment

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