What does Kubuntu really need to take over the desktop?

[GreyGeek]

...

Here are other valid arguments:

Why Linux Sucks | LFNW 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-cnaJoGCw
This guy makes a lot of good points.

Oh, contraire, THIS guy gives a lot of good reasons why Linux does not suck :

Oh, wait! ... it's the same guy!
Brian's an interesting guy. He used to be on the Linux Show but Jupiter Broadcasting took him off. Their viewership dropped so badly they were forced to bring him back on.

[Qqmike]

off the cuff ...

I set up 12.04 (finally). LOTS of good news: Firefox and T-Bird easier to install, multimedia plays automatically, etc. Much improved OS. But, and I feel this typifies one difference between Micro$ and Linux and positioning Kubuntu more mainstream ...

Got a new hp2050 printer (no big deal--very basic, popular, Wal-Mart $39).
Plugged it in, an auto-installed pops up to help! Wow! Just like M$ XP+.
This is an improvement now in Kubuntu!
OK, done, it works.

But ... where is the GUI Device controller-screen-menu-thingy?

Now I happen to know from experience that it is (probably) hplip.
But I still can't find such in Kicker.
Nothing in Tray.
Is hplip installed?
I happen to know that can be answered in the package manager, Muon in this case.
(I also happen to know I could enter hplip as a commnd in Konsole and hope it goes).
Ah ... THERE it is ... hplip is installed, so says Muon!
Why can't I find it?
I happen to know that it is probably in /usr/bin (and that info can be found under one of the hplip tabs).
I happen to know this is the info (location) I need to install it myself in the Kicker menu somewhere.
Already, this is too complicated, right? But ...
Wait ... in Muon, under hplip (installed) is hplip-gui (not installed).
I happen to know what gui means.
I happen to understand that the gui is to be a package separate from hplip.
So, I mark hplip-gui for installation.
There we go.
I now see Printer Toolbox hplip in the K.
I see a printer icon in Tray.
We're in business now.

I hope you get me here, and I'm sure if we opened this up for discussion, you guys could cite many of your own examples.

Point is: You and I happen to know how this rocks.

Not so for grandpa, brother, sister's neighbor, my neighbor, the friendly clerk I know at the local store, my doctor, my auto mechanic, my plumber, my real estate agent, my lawyer, ...
Now, your 16-yo niece and nephew could figure it all out.
As could perhaps my doctor's secretary.
But perhaps not so for many people in the 30+ crowd, esp the 50+ crowd.
(And while many people COULD figure it out, how many would want to make the effort much beyond 5 minutes of clicking?)

[SteveRiley]

Does the printer configuration KCM (in System Settings) not work for HP printers?

[Qqmike]

I think it does, yes. In fact, that must be the utility that auto-pops-up upon plugging in the new printer (and probably used the hplip package?)

In my stream of account, this:
"Got a new hp2050 printer (no big deal--very basic, popular, Wal-Mart $39).
Plugged it in, an auto-installed pops up to help! Wow! Just like M$ XP+.
This is an improvement now in Kubuntu!
OK, done, it works."

But then nowhere could I find specifically the hplip control center for the printer, which is pretty cool, btw, and lets you put your finger precisely on any little bit of info/control you could ever wish to see for your hp printer.

[SteveRiley]

Yes... while hplip is part of the standard Kubuntu distro, the -gui package isn't. I'll post a quick on the kubuntu-devel list to ask about the possibility of adding it -- at only 19.8 KiB compressed, it won't take up much room at all on the ISO.

[Qqmike]

Thanks, Steve.

And, to focus on my point (along with the OP), something like a common GUI for a common item (a common hp printer), should already have been thought through to ... "really take over the desktop."

There have been so many such examples in the past, going back to 6.06 (when installing an hp printer was really tricky at times). Little by little, each version seems to be more "M$ Windows-like" wrt serving up to the user the common stuff she/he will probably need or want.

(Of course, I recall going through really subtle, tricky stuff--sometimes even tweaking the Register for COMMON tasks--to get my XP fully functional, too, but that's history, and what we are talking about here is to NOT have such a user experience, right?)

[Jonas]

I've just skimmed through this post so I may have missed some points here.
I find that technically Linux based distros are on the right path. As mentioned with every release bugs are fixed and with some distros there's nothing more to add out of the box when compared installing windows/OSX (except some applications), the majority of the users would be satisfied with a Linux dist, given they don't really use anything technically advanced applications.

One thing that annoy me more and more, within the Linux community, is the lack to convey the basic ideas of free software. Most of the majority users do understand vaguely "open source" but that exclude the freedoms of Free software and locks in some functionality for the majority users which make them think Linux isn't for them (ex. flash is buggy - because Adobe control it for windows). I still have trouble to make common users understand the basics of this freedom. They tend to think that if they don't pay for a application they don't support that company/standard (I firmly believe that if Photoshop hadn't been pirated at all - the market for GIMP would have been more open).

It bothers me that Google for instance (on android) who should be aware of the freedoms don't use the term "Gratis" instead of "Free"( -of charge). Gratis is in the English vocabulary and should be used to emphasize that it's free of charge but not free to develop. I think we on various Linux forums should use the term gratis.

I'm not a Stallmanist (I can agree with those who think he's to dogmatic) and find that a portion of pragmatism should be used for a working OS system and a healthy discussion regarding Free vs. Open. But if we don't fully understand or draw the line between Free, Free and Free, (free, Gratis and Open) how on earth should the common user understand it?

Here's a great example of this lack of understanding - from 2 guys who earn their living(!) discussing Linux & FLOSS, Stallman have to repeatedly correct one of the two hosts:
http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/1...gnulas-s20e10/

Edit; To clarify with a conclusion - my thought is that the common user see it as a Linux flaw that some things don't work. We have to readdress this flaw to those companies closing/locking in the development - make the common user blame (i.e demand from) those who should be addressed - Microsoft, Apple, Adobe & Game developers etc.
b.r

Jonas

PS; Is it just me ...when I log in to Kubuntu I always wear a blue ski mask!?

[GreyGeek]

...

I'm not a Stallmanist (I can agree with those who think he's to dogmatic) and find that a portion of pragmatism should be used for a working OS system and a healthy discussion regarding Free vs. Open. But if we don't fully understand or draw the line between Free, Free and Free, (free, Gratis and Open) how on earth should the common user understand it?

Here's a great example of this lack of understanding - from 2 guys who earn their living(!) discussing Linux & FLOSS, Stallman have to repeatedly correct one of the two hosts:
http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/1...gnulas-s20e10/

Edit; To clarify with a conclusion - my thought is that the common user see it as a Linux flaw that some things don't work. We have to readdress this flaw to those companies closing/locking in the development - make the common user blame (i.e demand from) those who should be addressed - Microsoft, Apple, Adobe & Game developers etc.

I think a lot of people want us to forget that without Stallman and his GPL there would be NO Linux kernel. There *might* be a Hurd kernel but it would be haunting the domains of BEOS by now. Without the GPL most of the "free" software available today would not exist or would have been copied and patented by proprietary interests. Without the legal power behind the GPL most public domain software would have been stolen and copyrighted or patented exactly the same way they have ripped off the works that entered the public domain before the bribed Congress made it legal to steal public domain works and copyright them.

Even now, faced with a 68% Android market share, Apple is suing every device manufacturer that is marketing Android phones with vague or bogus patent or copyright infringements. Rectangle shapes and round corners are original designs that a yeomen developer couldn't think up on his/her best day?

PS; Is it just me ...when I log in to Kubuntu I always wear a blue ski mask!?

It's just just you, Jonas. Your avatar looks fine in my Chromium browser.

[oshunluvr]

I hope you get me here, and I'm sure if we opened this up for discussion, you guys could cite many of your own examples.

Point is: You and I happen to know how this rocks.

Not so for grandpa, brother, sister's neighbor, my neighbor, the friendly clerk I know at the local store, my doctor, my auto mechanic, my plumber, my real estate agent, my lawyer, ...
Now, your 16-yo niece and nephew could figure it all out.
As could perhaps my doctor's secretary.
But perhaps not so for many people in the 30+ crowd, esp the 50+ crowd.
(And while many people COULD figure it out, how many would want to make the effort much beyond 5 minutes of clicking?)

And this is the reason for starting this thread in the first place. The hplip-gui is a perfect example of something that should be installed when your printer is detected or at least a prompt for it or something similar.

Funny thing is - ask a windows user what they expect to setup that new printer and you're likely to hear "Where's the driver disk?" There must be a path from that response to the Kubuntu way of doing things - in this case, opening Muon and searching for available programs.

As a command line user and semi-experienced linux user the lack of the gui thingy for my printer doesn't bug me in the least. However, most all "common" windows users woudl expect it - right or wrong.

I guess I envision a world in which we can have it all: The open and gratis operating system that is powerful enough to run a slew of systems and functions like in my house, but at the same time be simple enough that my non-interested (in computer stuff) college student can install and use linux every day without calling his dad once a month to help him figure something out - like how come his printer doesn't have a control panel.

The more I think about this, the more I wonder if the old Gnome 2 DE might have been a good choice for beginners had it continued in it's original path rather than the way it went. I still that KDE is the best DE for most computers but even I use others, like on my netbook. However, I'm excited about Plasma Active for a tablet and I really haven't tried the KDE netbook version on my mini HP yet. I'm using Enlightenment on it now.

Is it even possible for KDE to be able to cover all the bases (server, desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet, phone) without becoming unusable?

[woodsmoke]

Claydoh:
LOVED the image! lol

As to Oshunluver's and GG's comments on the kernel and "free".

I can remember, a few years ago, about the shouting match about the use of the term "free" as opposed to "open source".

Other miscellaneous comments about the vendors.

I, personally, think, that there is one huge and overriding reason why Linux may not be "mainstream on the desktop" for probably twenty or thirty years.

And that is, very simply, that the "supply train" that promotes DIVERSITY is driven by cold, hard cash.

If the delivery of software and hardware was not driven by cold hard cash then, in my opinion, we would probably all be running, what was it, "Peachtree" the software from the nineties in Britain, which was for schools mainly, and that really was pretty good stuff.

In other words, although there is a lot of touting that "development" flourishes in academia, and government, the GREAT PROLIFERATION of innovation has almost always come from private people putzing around and then forming a business, usually. And these people are "usually" driven by the profit incentive.

The Cathedral and the Bazaar is not a good analysis of "the bazaar" in my estimation, and for one very salient reason. The "success story" given in it is that the author was able to have a LOT of people "crowdwork" on an app of his.

Well.....duuuuuuhhhh, :0 the reason that the people flocked to him was his reputation within the community. And they wanted to be on the fringes, at least, of the status of working on it, for whatever reasons, grandiosity or just wanting to help.

But, the point of this is that until a major vendor sees some OTHER way of making money from Linux then there will probably not be a lot of "hardware objects running Linux" in the stores for people to buy.

But, the stores make just as much, if not more, money from the software. However that still does not auger for having Linux software in the stores.

The average user, it seems, wants to not have to "learn" how to get software and then "search around on the net" to get software but wants, instead, to go to a store,

They want to have Sheldon Leonard tell them what package to purchase and have the assurance that when the flop the DVD in the tray and follow a few guided steps then they will have the software they need.

And.....as the images suggests, they don't PRODUCE anything with that, they USE it..... as per the comments in previous posts.

So, there really is no incentive to learn how the thing works, but only to use it.

So, maybe the title of the thread should be Kubuntu Could Become the Leading Linux OS for a Particular Device..... Within the Limits of the Linux User Community.

And, unfortunately, I think that this situation will last for at least several decades until there is some kind of "natural" migration to "not purchased in a store" software.

AND THAT MAY BE....SURPRISINGLY...............MUSIC and BOOK downloads! lol

REALLY.......think about it.....a whole new generation is becoming accustomed to downloading both free and paid books and music onto tablets, and phones!

It ain't that much of a step to software.

just some thoughts.

woodsmoke

[GreyGeek]

.... The hplip-gui is a perfect example of something that should be installed when your printer is detected or at least a prompt for it or something similar.

.....

A couple of weeks ago I purchased an Acer V3-771G 17.3" notebook. One of the last things I planned to do was install my HP 1610dns duplex laser because I knew I'd have to install hplip and fetch the driver from my cloud storage, then go through the setup config.

But then I had a wild idea ... "what if Kubuntu would automatically recognize my printer and install it if I just plugged it into the USB port?" What's to lose? So, I did ... and it did! It took all of ten seconds to plug in my printer and print a test page. If those doing the work continue in their efforts, and sufficient numbers volunteer and pitch in, there is no limit to what KDE can become on any platform.

Is it even possible for KDE to be able to cover all the bases (server, desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet, phone) without becoming unusable?

I believe it is. The problem isn't capability, it is human resources. KDE and the Qt API is capable of a LOT more than what it is presently doing, but two paid developers and a dozen or so volunteers have limits on their time resources. But, having begun my journey with KDE when its 1.0 beta was released I can appreciate how far it has come. IMO, it is the most powerful DE available on a PC today.

[woodsmoke]

GG

Automatically recognizing USB printer.

Yes, and now things have shifted the OTHER way! lol.

My usb HP printer is automagically seen but I have to install the CORRECT driver for a HP Laserjet 6P. The recommended driver does not work and only shoves sheets out the printer. lol

woodsmoke

[Qqmike]

and sometimes identifying that correct driver in the hp-Linux-hplip isn't always so simple.

[woodsmoke]

Something just occurred to my miniscule brain.

and a reply to QQmike.

I augered in a previous post that until "Linux" can somehow be "in stores" to where people can "buy" it, that Linux wouldn't make it mainstream on the desktop.

Wellll I just clicked an interactive box for K3B which said "extra packages can be downloaded to enhance the functionality of.."

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Just how hard would it be to have that kind of thing happen for.....shall I risk saying.....ANYthing in the O.S. that has a "problem" in the U.S.?

Thus, unless the user really wants to install a NEW program, everything... would be offered as an enhancement, thus removing the need for a "store" item.

just a thought and probably wildly impossible.

QQmike, I quite agree on "many/some" of the HP drivers, until I went to the trouble to write it on a piece of paper and tape it to the inside of my machine, it was pretty much "hunt and peck" to find the correct driver for the Laserjet 6P when I did a new install. And what is even more curiouser is that with some OSs there are maybe two or three offered and othe others there might be 6 or so.

curious.

woodsmoke

[SteveRiley]

And there's another thing that all Linuxes (Linuxen? Linuxi?) will need: more manufacturers with the balls to resist Redmond.

Exhibit A, in which I encounter such resistance from that paragon of independence, Lenovo:
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/A-M-and-...ws/td-p/830035