An idea to show responsibility of Kubuntu's defaults

[BlueDaisy]

Looking at ways to help gain new users fo linuxr distributions, many people often ask for different defaults - like a switch in settings, package managers, bases, wallpapers, and of course in the notorious web browser. While everyone can fight over what would fit best, I do believe that the distribution creators, whatever they may be, must take full responsibility over the defaults they may put in their iso image. That is, if a creators put in "ren'py" into their distro, they should take full responsibility of the reactions users will have - and have no regrets over it. A newcomer looking at the defaults can tell that person a lot about what a distro represents, and what type of user it is intended to appeal to. If something does not work in the defaults, it gives a bad impression to users, making them think of the whole distro as pushing buggy software at them

However, I notice there's one thing in Kubuntu that's disturbing: Although it has some decent defaults, there are "installers" everywhere that are outside the package manager and the add-on installer in kde: for defualt screensavers, flash players, codecs for k3b, firefox, and default wallpapers. Somehow, I think they leave a poor sense of accountability in Kubuntu. They speak of the developers of Kubuntu having regrets about it's defaults, almost saying to the user that "we wanted to include these things, but we couldn't because of 'this' " It displays that our distro alone has little control over itself, that you can't force accountability into it for some reason. This just doesn't seem right.

K3b doesn't have a specific codec by default. The developers should have full responsibility and no regrets in this - they follow patent laws ethically.

There's only one wallpaper. If creators of Kubuntu truly believe in this for an idealized default, they should have no regrets to just let people put in wallpapers of their own, and leave no installer of wallpapers they might have wanted in the iso.

Flash isn't included. You don't need to regret not having it by implementing a notifying installer in the defaults. Some people don't like flash...

No screensavers. If this this is how the defaults intended to do full responsibilty should be to the developers to the reasons why there isn't any screensavers. (I like screensavers!)

If by all means that rekonq must be the true, default web browser, there should be full responsibility over whatever complaints that users have towards the web browser, and just adding a firefox installer should not be a way to scapegoat from this responsibility.

Let's not have any more regrets about the defaults, and do away with these "outside installers." after all, as a lot of pundits say about Ubuntu: Like it or not, they move towards a direction without regrets in their decisions, in face of many doubters. I think these installers tell users that Kubuntu itself it a doubter of it's defaults, which I hope is not the case...

[Snowhog]

You do take in to consideration, that Kubuntu, an 'official' Canonical distro, must adhere to Canonical's philosophy of not including 'non-free' proprietary apps/codec's in it's releases, and, that the Kubuntu developers do there very best to be true to the KDE/Plasma Qt library platform. Thus, few, if any, GTK applications in the Kubuntu distro.

There is also the issue of space limitations on a LiveCD. You just can't put everything you might want in the .iso -- it won't fit.

[BlueDaisy]

True, yet none of the other Ubuntu derivatives have outside installers that seem to doubt the defaults. Also, in such qt purity, why include an installer for firefox, which will install something non-qt/kde?

[Snowhog]

Also, in such qt purity, why include an installer for firefox, which will install something non-qt/kde?
Because the developers do recognize that a lot of the Kubuntu users desire and use Firefox, so including the installer is a reasonable 'compromise'. The are making the choice simpler for the end user.

[BlueDaisy]

Because the developers do recognize that a lot of the Kubuntu users desire and use Firefox, so including the installer is a reasonable 'compromise'. The are making the choice simpler for the end user.

...and why do they wish to install Firefox, when we already have a web browser in Rekonq in the defaults?

[Snowhog]

...and why do they wish to install Firefox, when we already have a web browser in Rekonq in the defaults?
"They don't"; the users do. They could have taken the position of "We know better than you" and not included it at all, but they opted to provided the installer so those who did want FF would be able to install it easily. This shows that they support 'user choice'.

[BlueDaisy]

Okay, then let me rephrase this... I actually meant this the first time. Why would the users want to install firefox over the default browser rekonq, to a point that you'd need an outside installer for it?

[whatthefunk]

I think its and ideal setup. It limits the defaults (not everybody wants screensavers, billions of wallpapers etc) but makes it easy for users to get the things they want. I dont see what the complaint is.

[Snowhog]

Okay, then let me rephrase this... I actually meant this the first time. Why would the users want to install firefox over the default browser rekonq, to a point that you'd need an outside installer for it?
Not to be 'flip', but because not everyone likes the color blue. Some like orange.

[BlueDaisy]

I think its and ideal setup. It limits the defaults (not everybody wants screensavers, billions of wallpapers etc) but makes it easy for users to get the things they want. I dont see what the complaint is.

Well... my point is that Kubuntu should take full responsibility of the defaults that it employs. By how the distribution is setup, with outside installers for these different areas, it seems like it doesn't want to. It sounds wishy-washy - does it want screensavers or does it not? Does it want to respect codec laws or does it not? Think of what the firefox installer "speaks" to a new user, in the main menu: Is it supposed to be a primary browser to rekonq, or just an option? It just makes a sense of no responsibility of the distro defaults- it just blurs them to the end user of what kubuntu is supposed to be - including the idea that it a pure kde/qt distro...

[whatthefunk]

Well... my point is that Kubuntu should take full responsibility of the defaults that it employs. By how the distribution is setup, with outside installers for these different areas, it seems like it doesn't want to. It sounds wishy-washy - does it want screensavers or does it not? Does it want to respect codec laws or does it not? Think of what the firefox installer "speaks" to a new user, in the main menu: Is it supposed to be a primary browser to rekonq, or just an option? It just makes a sense of no responsibility of the distro defaults- it just blurs them to the end user of what kubuntu is supposed to be - including the idea that it a pure kde/qt distro...

Youre missing the point. Do you want screensavers or dont you? Do you want codecs or dont you? Do you want rekonq or some other browser? Its up to the user to decide and Kubuntu tries to make it easy for you to decide. Id much rather have it that way than for Kubuntu to have a hard coded theme difficult to customize.

[woodsmoke]

I don't know, 'cause I'm not the brightest bulb in the package; but it is possible that there is a situation of this poster or that poster not COMPLETELY understanding what the other poster has said and thus the posters are "talking past each other".

BlueDaisy, would you give a concrete example of where an actual Kubuntu, not KDE developer said something that was "wishy washy" about including, or not including, something?

In that way, then the other posters can respond to that particular item.

woodsmoke



woodsmoke

[JontheEchidna]

To address your points:
* Obviously, we would ship extra wallpapers if we could, but quite frankly there's not enough space on the CD.

It's hard to make the case for something the user would likely completely customize with their own personal artwork choice over 5 or 10 applications that could be contained within that space, or the 2 or 3 extra translations that could be made available on the CD to benefit those without internet connections. The same goes for screensavers. Additionally, with the advent of the LCD display the need for screensavers is much diminished. It is much better to just have the screen automatically power itself off, which is why that is the default. But since people like yourself still hold positive nostalgic feelings for screensavers, we provide an easy way for those who wish to install them. I don't think you can really complain that we make extra functionality easy to obtain for those who wish to have it.... :s

* By use of the Ubuntu repositories, we must respect their decision not to include patent-encumbered packages by default.
This is non-negotiable, and most other distros do this too. By requiring the user to install it themselves, liability is shifted to the user, if they choose to install them. This is obviously sub-optimal, but unavoidable.

* The Firefox installer gives those familiar with the browser a way to easily get what they know.
Remember, the average user does not really care that Kubuntu is a "pure KDE distribution". Sure, Kubuntu is developed with the idea that KDE provides the best software around, but the average user may not even know about KDE, and certainly doesn't mind the "purity" of the distribution being misrepresented by a semi-prominent method for installing Firefox. The average user will say "Oh, hey. I used Firefox in Windows" and will install it because it is familiar.

* Contrary to what you seem to believe, people want Youtube (and large parts of the web) to just work.
Adobe doesn't let us redistribute their plugin, so we have to offer it for install, and nobody except you seems to mind that we do. Yes, Flash is what everybody loves to hate because it makes their firefox crash or their Chrome use a lot of memory, but even when my mother complains about how flash eats up her windows laptop's memory, she still uses it every day to play her Facebook games and watch videos on Youtube.

All of these are not in any way some sort of embarrassing failure to adhere to certain ideals. (Not that most users would care even if they were.) They are pragmatic solutions to practical problems that arise when distributing free software in such a way that it is usable by the everyday computer user.

[bra|10n]

I'll just say that I was tempted to add my thoughts to this thread a number of times, but on this occassion I'll do MYSELF the favour and abstain.

[BlueDaisy]

QUOTE]BlueDaisy, would you give a concrete example of where an actual Kubuntu, not KDE developer said something that was "wishy washy" about including, or not including, something?

In that way, then the other posters can respond to that particular item.
[/QUOTE]

Oh my... apparently, I don't know if any kubuntu developer said anything wishy-washy... But maybe I'll try again with my points.

We know there are different ways to install packages in Kubuntu:
1. Via Muon - from the repositories of ubuntu/debian.
2. The Kde add-on manager - of which you can install themes and widgets that are not from the debian/ubuntu repository
3. Outside Installers - which all are completely independent of a typical package manager, but install from the debian/ubuntu repositories (at least I think I do). They come up as akondi popups, or as main menu items.

The ones I say are making the distro seem wishy-washy are the third kind. Sure, you could easily install them from muon, but for some reason the developers thought that these outside installers are needed, as they are very upfront. But this result makes you wonder if the packages were supposed to be in the defaults in the first place, or if only the packages in the iso itself is what Kubuntu truly is. It's this blurring the defaults kubuntu has. This is not about whether screensavers should be in the distro, but whether it was whether if the developers are taking full responsibility and control of the defaults for saying the distro doesn't need screensavers in the main iso. The outside installers confuse a user whether the distro intended to leave them in or out, and makes it so no accountability of the distro developers can be made. Remember, the other derivatives don't have these outside installers, and they take a stand and accountability of what the distro defaults are.

Hope this clears things up...

[whatthefunk]

If you want your OSs developers to be in control of everything, maybe switch to Apple?

Id also like to point out that most of what youve mentioned is default KDE not Kubuntu.

[BlueDaisy]

So the pop-ups saying you can install something are part of kde?

[SteveRiley]

Sure, you could easily install them from muon, but for some reason the developers thought that these outside installers are needed, as they are very upfront. But this result makes you wonder if the packages were supposed to be in the defaults in the first place, or if only the packages in the iso itself is what Kubuntu truly is. It's this blurring the defaults kubuntu has... The outside installers confuse a user whether the distro intended to leave them in or out, and makes it so no accountability of the distro developers can be made. Remember, the other derivatives don't have these outside installers, and they take a stand and accountability of what the distro defaults are.
Let's try the opposite argument.

Alice expects to find popular thing X in usual place Y. After a fresh install of BangCrunchGrapesStarWhack, X is not in Y. Alice does not know to run thing-finder Z to obtain popular thing X. Similar thing W lurks nearby, but it's all too much new stuff to learn all at once. Now what?

BangCruchGrapesStarWhack is unconcerned about users like Alice. In its motivation to be strong and sturdy, it leaves folks like Alice with few, if any, clues. So Alice abandons (again) her quest to free herself of proprietary software constraints.

But then in one last heroic attempt, Alice downloads Zesty Zebra. She'd heard about it, but the congnoscenti in the next hallway speak of Zesty Zebra only with derisive slander. She musters the courage to ingore them and carry out an install. As before, she looks for popular thing X in usual place Y. Similar thing W is there, but -- wait -- there's the icon for popular thing X! That familiar, comforting icon. She clicks it, a friendly message informs her that popular thing X is now downloading and will install shortly. Alice makes a cup of tea; when she returns, popular thing X is open and waiting.

Thus comforted, Alice feels vindicated. This Zesty Zebra thing really isn't so bad as those nattering nabobs claim it is. She likes it. Now that she knows she has something familiar to return to when needed, what new things might await her exploration?

[BlueDaisy]

I feel like a totally misunderstood user when I speak... No one seems to understand anything I say. Please close the thread down. :(