Seattle. Snow. The usual videos of morons and their cars.

[SteveRiley]

Hills and cars just don't mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6zlkP8thkk).

But more entertaining is this bus demolishing its own route sign (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZCyQ3emQg&t=2m43s). Crunch.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Gee, those bring back such warm, fuzzy feelings of living in Dallas. NOT! The first winter we were in Dallas it snowed and iced, and we're calling all around asking for tire chains, and they're like, huh?!, tire chains?! Coming from SoCal--where chains are required for mountain driving when it's snowing, and enforced by roadblocks--and having lived in Albuquerque prior to moving to Dallas, we just didn't know anyone could not know about--or carry--tire chains.

Year after year I saw cars slipping, sliding, twirling and crashing because the idiot drivers were clueless when it came to driving on ice/snow. I laid down the law that I would NOT be seen in my office at work if there was ice on the ground. It just wasn't worth battling it out with all the idiots on the roads, and since I could work from home it really wasn't a big deal. Now that I'm back home in warm, beautiful, sunny SoCal, the ONLY time I have to see ice/snow is when I look up at the San Gabriel Mountains--from down here in the valley where it's nice and warm. ;D

[lcorken]

Yes, stay home is the best idea. The few times I've had to drive in snow and ice I noticed a lot of other vehicles passing me. Interrestingly, it seems most of the ones in the ditch, upside down or sideways are the SUVs. I know they are often top heavy but I think there is something in an SUV that sucks the common sense out of some people. :P

Cautious Ken.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Yes, stay home is the best idea. The few times I've had to drive in snow and ice I noticed a lot of other vehicles passing me. Interrestingly, it seems most of the ones in the ditch, upside down or sideways are the SUVs. I know they are often top heavy but I think there is something in an SUV that sucks the common sense out of some people. :P

I agree--I've noticed the same thing about SUVs. Um, ironically...guess what I drive? A Toyota RAV4 SUV. But, I'm not a moron driver! When I was living in Dallas, and if I was already out (like at work) when it started to ice/snow, I was cautious, stayed in 2nd gear most of the time, and let the idiots fly past me on the left (although in Texas, unlike most other places in the civilized world, there is no concept of fast lane/slow lane--in normal weather, I'd be flying along on the freeway in the left lane and have to slam on my brakes to avoid crashing into the ass of some moron doing 30). Going over bridges I was particularly cautious. My 4WD, 5-speed manual transmissions certainly added a layer of safety and being in control.

[Snowhog]

I live in Alaska (South Central [Anchorage vicinity, but live in Wasilla]), and it amazes me every Winter to see how people who live here - have lived here for years - drive. You would think that they have never seen snow and ice before! Of those vehicles that end up off the road do to poor driving habits, 4x4 vehicles are a surprising majority. People incorrectly think that they have more traction and control with a 4x4 on snow/ice than does a two-wheel drive, and so, can drive faster than is safe for the conditions.

[DoYouKubuntu]

I live in Alaska (South Central [Anchorage vicinity, but live in Wasilla]), and it amazes me every Winter to see how people who live here - have lived here for years - drive. You would think that they have never seen snow and ice before!

That's funny. You'd think--after a few years, you know--they'd figure it out. :o


Of those vehicles that end up off the road do to poor driving habits, 4x4 vehicles are a surprising majority. People incorrectly think that they have more traction and control with a 4x4 on snow/ice than does a two-wheel drive, and so, can drive faster than is safe for the conditions.

I do think my 4x4, 5-speed manual transmissions gave me better traction and control--but I did NOT drive faster as a result. I looked at them as an added safety layer, not license to behave like a moron. I'm sure some people do the latter, though, so I'm not arguing about that. It's just that not ALL people with 4x4s do it!

[Snowhog]

It's just that not ALL people with 4x4s do it!


Of which I agree. Those who already "know how to drive" understand that just because you have a 4x4, you can't drive how ever you want, regardless of the road conditions! Believe me, a 4x4 going 70 MPH on a snow covered highway that has to suddenly apply the brakes - hard - isn't going to stop any faster (anti-braking aside).

[DoYouKubuntu]

It's just that not ALL people with 4x4s do it!


Of which I agree. Those who already "know how to drive" understand that just because you have a 4x4, you can't drive how ever you want, regardless of the road conditions! Believe me, a 4x4 going 70 MPH on a snow covered highway that has to suddenly apply the brakes - hard - isn't going to stop any faster (anti-braking aside).

Exactly.

When I'm driving up in the local mountains [in normal weather] I feel in control in a way that I never did [a million years ago] when I'd go up there driving an automatic, non-4WD. It's totally different. I love the control downshifting and/or using the clutch provides. Just no comparison.

[woodsmoke]

What I really loved was the woman in flipflops putting chains on her car in six inch deep snow.

woodsmoke

[SteveRiley]

I love this town, just the right percentage of goofballs to keep it interesting ;)

[The Liquidator]

Yes, stay home is the best idea. The few times I've had to drive in snow and ice I noticed a lot of other vehicles passing me. Interrestingly, it seems most of the ones in the ditch, upside down or sideways are the SUVs. I know they are often top heavy but I think there is something in an SUV that sucks the common sense out of some people. :P

Cautious Ken.


SUVs... They have the nickname of "Chelsea Tractor" over here. The most common purpose for these things seems to be for wealthy (and lazy?) urban people to take the kids to school without a glimpse of hills/snow/mud etc. A supermini would do the job better.

On the videos - Either people are soft nowadays (or maybe I was stupid) but when I was 16 I would think nothing of going out on my motorbike in conditions like those in the first video - it was my only form of transport, but the snow added a fun factor nevertheless. Still have one but it's a hobby now - wouldn't go out in conditions like that any more - too many nutters in cars, as the videos clearly illustrate ;D

[richb]

Stay at home! Not an option in Upstate New York. Chains are a thing of the past. Experience at winter driving, a front wheel or all wheel drive vehicle and appropriate caution, and 6 inches of now is not an issue.

[ronw]

I live in Alaska ...

Snowhog - can you see Russia and/or Sarah Palin from your backyard?

[ScottyK]

Here in Oklahoma City we have part of the I-44 bridge that is elevated, and is also at a slight slope. Great for drainage during the spring storms, but a real pain when the ice storms come through. Cars and trucks go through there, and end up crashing at the bottom of the sloped bridge.

It would cost too much to fix, so for now the media camps out there during an ice storm and records all the accidents. Locals stay off it during bad weather.

[DoYouKubuntu]

SUVs... They have the nickname of "Chelsea Tractor" over here. The most common purpose for these things seems to be for wealthy (and lazy?) urban people to take the kids to school without a glimpse of hills/snow/mud etc.

Yep, that's why I bought my first one! To take my kids--two Great Danes, Freddie Mercury and his sister, Queen--out with me. I had to say goodbye to my beloved Toyota truck because the kids outgrew the front seat in approximately....two weeks, I think? *sigh* No room for me, my husband, and the kids. :( So I bought my first (of three, so far) Toyota RAV4 SUVs. Oh, lazy? No. Little Freddie went to work with me every day. ;D Urban? No. Suburban. :) Snow? Yes indeed! :o

PS, Steve your crappy weather is front page news on MY hometown paper, the LA Times; right now the headline says "Icy winter storm paralyzes Seattle" (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/01/seattle-ice-storm-snow.html), and yesterday it said something about the unprepared northwest being hit by a nasty winter storm.

[SteveRiley]

PS, Steve your crappy weather is front page news on MY hometown paper, the LA Times; right now the headline says "Icy winter storm paralyzes Seattle" (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/01/seattle-ice-storm-snow.html), and yesterday it said something about the unprepared northwest being hit by a nasty winter storm.


The comments posted on your paper's article yesterday (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/01/seattle-snow-storm.html) are hilarious. It's true that weird weather gets over-dramatized here, but remember what news is, by definition, something that doesn't happen very often. Snow is rare here. We don't have garages all over the city filled with waiting snow plows. And we have little tolerance for stupidity, as the video in the article you referenced aptly demonstrates. Morons who try to drive on Denny Way (shown below) when it's covered with ice deserve every bit of scorn they receive :)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-e9RSpCXEHqY/TxiRk9vMl4I/AAAAAAAAKfw/ElzWs7PSgjc/s430/denny-way-snow.jpg

[oshunluvr]

Hey, you guys aren't the only ones with bad weather...

...it's been getting down to the low 50's at night and can you believe it rained on Tuesday?

Global warming is going to kill us all! :o

Thank goodness I have a 4 wheel drive Navigator so I can dump hydrocarbons out by the pound as I drive to the freeway!

Hmmm, actually, that's not really very funny is it?

Ok, so I usually drive my new Fiat 500 - 35ish MPG...

[SteveRiley]

...it's been getting down to the low 50's at night and can you believe it rained on Tuesday?


I send family-unfriendly thoughts in your general direction! >:( ;D

[dibl]

Is Ivar's restaurant still on the waterfront there? Man I had a marvelous dinner there one night, in the mid-1980s.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Hey, you guys aren't the only ones with bad weather...

...it's been getting down to the low 50's at night

;D :D I know I've said it before, but it just kills me how--now that I'm back home in SoCal--people here ACTUALLY think it's cold when the temp goes below 70. My mom is hilarious--"oh, it's SO COLD!," and first I'll say, "I KNOW! look at the ice! it's at least three inches thick right now!", followed by "subtract FIFTY degrees and then we'll talk about cold, okay?" (And she's from New York/New Jersey! She was born and grew up there, until moving here at 16. I tell her all the time she's turned into a wimp!


and can you believe it rained on Tuesday?

Wait...it RAINED over in Long Beach?! We didn't get a single drop here in Arcadia. >:( I wish we had--I'm tired of watering. It's tough going outside in January...with the sun blaring down on you and everything...barefoot, in short pants, short sleeves, standing around watering planters and adjusting the sprinklers. *sigh*

(When I lived in Dallas--and it was WELL below freezing--I'd go outside with no additional clothing for warmth, and pour hot water into the birdbath fountain I had made, then dash back in and try to warm up; my husband and daughter thought I was nuts...no, wait...never mind). I've got some pics of it frozen over with icicles hanging down--but I tried to prevent that so the occasional bird would have a water source. We were lucky as we had cardinal families that nested in our bushes, and they got used to being fed sunflower seeds on the patio and partaking of the fountain's water, even when it was snowing/icing.)

[SteveRiley]

Is Ivar's restaurant still on the waterfront there? Man I had a marvelous dinner there one night, in the mid-1980s.


Yup. (http://www.ivars.com/index.php?page=locations_acres-of-clams)



;D :D I know I've said it before, but it just kills me how--now that I'm back home in SoCal--people here ACTUALLY think it's cold when the temp goes below 70.


I suspect what people gripe about is relative differences. I used to spend a lot of time in southeast Asia. I'd get acclimated to 95 degree weather. Then when I'd return home, 70 really did feel cold.

[oshunluvr]

@DYK: Can you believe my Mom actually went to Florida to stay with my sister for all of Dec. and half of Jan. because it is too cold here! She lives in Seal Beach! lol


It's tough going outside in January...with the sun blaring down on you and everything...barefoot, in short pants, short sleeves, standing around watering planters and adjusting the sprinklers. *sigh*
That should get a few dozen pairs of "Evil Eyes" pointed in your direction!

@SteveR: I've been chatting daily with a business associate in your neighborhood this week and I told him about watching his co-Seattle-ites battle it out on the roads. Fun Stuff!

I was up there in the 80's also. I had a couple girlfriends up that way from time to time. I remember a beer joint out on the pier with dozens if not hundreds of beers on tap. Don't remember the name of it tho...

[DoYouKubuntu]

;D :D I know I've said it before, but it just kills me how--now that I'm back home in SoCal--people here ACTUALLY think it's cold when the temp goes below 70.

I suspect what people gripe about is relative differences. I used to spend a lot of time in southeast Asia. I'd get acclimated to 95 degree weather. Then when I'd return home, 70 really did feel cold.

Yeah, I get that, but for the most part I don't think that's it--these people (and they're *MY* people--I'm a born and raised Angeleno) seriously think it's COLD if it's in the 60s. I just shake my head, make snide remarks about being weather wimps, and laugh. What I can't recall is if *I* used to act like that, too. ??? Before living in Albuquerque and Dallas, I'd never felt REAL cold temperatures (other than brief jaunts up in the mountains to see snow), but now that I have, it's just RIDICULOUS the way folks complain about how cold it is, when it ISN'T! I got the fun of dealing with single digit temps in Dallas, multiple times--now THAT'S cold. :o

I also get a real kick out of all the local newscasts doing their "WE'RE ON STORM WATCH!" routines when there's like three raindrops. Good grief...

[SteveRiley]

I remember a beer joint out on the pier with dozens if not hundreds of beers on tap. Don't remember the name of it tho...


That could describe any number of places here. We have lots of piers. Lots of people falling off them, too.



I also get a real kick out of all the local newscasts doing their "WE'RE ON STORM WATCH!" routines


I hope local TV news never goes away. It's the best entertainment on television these days.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BBasqGVHuyg/TwE1lL6pzjI/AAAAAAAAHls/03LxwHJzYgY/s500/JohnnyDrama.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GTq5FaZS3EI/TwE1qRo2ZmI/AAAAAAAAHmk/-GGhYgbN3zk/s500/MOSFET.jpg

[GreyGeek]

LOCAL MAN WITHOUT TOILET PAPER... SWAT TEAM CALLED IN

They should have called the HAZMAT team, some of that gas escaping from the toilet can be deadly! ;D

I learned to drive in South Denver on snow and ice. Doing 180's and 360's was fun, when my dad let me borrow his car. To traverse the mile to HS I'd grab onto the right side of the rear bumper of a car that slowed down for an intersection near my house. From that position I'd sqat and let him pull me all the way to school, while I kept an eye out for bare spots in the road, and it was far enough to the right to avoid wheel spray. Back then in the mid and late 50s, they didn't spread salt. Everyone used chains or studded tires, so the roads were usually snow packed or icy.


In the early 80s I was flying back in a Cessna 172 Skyhawk from a business trip down South. I was at 11,000 feet over South East Kansas when the "urge", one not relieved by a hose and bag, became overwhelming. I pulled on the carb heat and descended as fast as I could without causing a crack in the engine block, landed at the nearest airport and taxied as fast as I could without taking off a building at the end of the airport which appeared to be the terminal. The one at the other end appeared to be a maintenance shack. I jumped out, ran in and asked where the bathroom was. "At the other end of the airport" was the reply. I jumped back into the plane and taxied as fast as I could to the other end, ran into the bathroom and obtained blessed relief. Calm, relaxed and finished I looked around for toilet paper. NONE in sight! No magazines either. There was a sink and a water tap that worked, but no soap. You do what you have to do. After that I always flew with my own roll of TP and a bar of soap in my flight kit.

[DoYouKubuntu]

@DYK: Can you believe my Mom actually went to Florida to stay with my sister for all of Dec. and half of Jan. because it is too cold here! She lives in Seal Beach! lol

That's too funny!



It's tough going outside in January...with the sun blaring down on you and everything...barefoot, in short pants, short sleeves, standing around watering planters and adjusting the sprinklers. *sigh*
That should get a few dozen pairs of "Evil Eyes" pointed in your direction!

I know, I know...but I PAID my dues! I lived in Dallas for years and suffered through some of the worst ice storms in its history, to say nothing of the normal, below freezing temps every winter. So I feel entitled. ;D

[SteveRiley]

In the early 80s I was flying back in a Cessna 172 Skyhawk from a business trip down South. I was at 11,000 feet over South East Kansas when the "urge", one not relieved by a hose and bag... I jumped back into the plane and taxied as fast as I could to the other end, ran into the bathroom and obtained blessed relief.


Two questions and one short story.

* Wouldn't it have been faster to fly from one end of the airport to the other?

* Why didn't you just descend to, oh, 1000 feet, then hang your butt out the window and crap like a bird in flight?

* A trash can in a restroom somewhere along Orchard Road in Singapore once contained a soiled sock that had just moments earlier been on my left foot. Blessed relief, and cooler feet, too.



I know, I know...but I PAID my dues! I lived in Dallas for years and suffered through some of the worst ice storms in its history, to say nothing of the normal, below freezing temps every winter. So I feel entitled. ;D


My wife wonders whether all you SoCalis really know what snow looks like. Perhaps this will help: imagine cocaine falling freely from the sky. That should be easy for you to visualize, right? ;)

[bsniadajewski]

Hey, you guys aren't the only ones with bad weather...

...it's been getting down to the low 50's at night

;D :D I know I've said it before, but it just kills me how--now that I'm back home in SoCal--people here ACTUALLY think it's cold when the temp goes below 70. My mom is hilarious--"oh, it's SO COLD!," and first I'll say, "I KNOW! look at the ice! it's at least three inches thick right now!", followed by "subtract FIFTY degrees and then we'll talk about cold, okay?" (And she's from New York/New Jersey! She was born and grew up there, until moving here at 16. I tell her all the time she's turned into a wimp!


and can you believe it rained on Tuesday?

Wait...it RAINED over in Long Beach?! We didn't get a single drop here in Arcadia. >:( I wish we had--I'm tired of watering. It's tough going outside in January...with the sun blaring down on you and everything...barefoot, in short pants, short sleeves, standing around watering planters and adjusting the sprinklers. *sigh*

(When I lived in Dallas--and it was WELL below freezing--I'd go outside with no additional clothing for warmth, and pour hot water into the birdbath fountain I had made, then dash back in and try to warm up; my husband and daughter thought I was nuts...no, wait...never mind). I've got some pics of it frozen over with icicles hanging down--but I tried to prevent that so the occasional bird would have a water source. We were lucky as we had cardinal families that nested in our bushes, and they got used to being fed sunflower seeds on the patio and partaking of the fountain's water, even when it was snowing/icing.)


If you think that's cold, today's high for Plover,WI, 2 above. Tonight's low, -6. Oh, the joys of living in America's Dairyland.

[GreyGeek]

....
Two questions and one short story.

* Wouldn't it have been faster to fly from one end of the airport to the other?


One would think so, but while I can "drive" fast down a taxiway at an uncontrolled airport, the wheels cannot leave the ground on a taxiway. I have to broadcast intent on the unicom channel before I take to the runway and be sure another aircraft is not on approach. That takes time. A Hawk stalls at 45 knots and the recommended take off speed is 67 knots. I wouldn't get much faster than that before I'd have to throttled down and turn off onto the taxiway at the other end.



* Why didn't you just descend to, oh, 1000 feet, then hang your butt out the window and crap like a bird in flight?


You've never sat in a cockpit of a Cessna 172, have you? It does not have autopilot, and the windows are too small to do anything more than stick you head out, which I had to do once in a Cessna 152 in order to land when I had smoke from an electrical fire in the cockpit blinding my eyes. You are harnessed in and the wheel is about a foot from your belly or chest in flight mode. Besides, even if you could squat out the windows, "it" wouldn't fall straight down. The wind stream would blow it back at your empennage , and you could damage the tail structure enough to bring your plane down. That's also why flying into freezing rain is so bad. Chunks of ice flying off the wings or body could damage the tail section.



* A trash can in a restroom somewhere along Orchard Road in Singapore once contained a soiled sock that had just moments earlier been on my left foot. Blessed relief, and cooler feet, too.


I thought about using my socks, and about tearing up my tee-shirt to make some wipes. I decided to convert the sink into a makeshift baday.

[DoYouKubuntu]

I know, I know...but I PAID my dues! I lived in Dallas for years and suffered through some of the worst ice storms in its history, to say nothing of the normal, below freezing temps every winter. So I feel entitled. ;D


My wife wonders whether all you SoCalis really know what snow looks like. Perhaps this will help: imagine cocaine falling freely from the sky. That should be easy for you to visualize, right? ;)

Cocaine? What's that? *looks around room innocently* ;) (I did my fair share of recreational drugs when I was a kid, then quit cold turkey and--just like giving up meat and cigarettes--never looked back.)

Yes, SOME of us native Southern Californians do actually know what snow looks like. :o I grew up near the foot of the San Gabriel Mountains--and am back in the same city now, with a very good view of the mountains from my yard--and used to go up there with friends to goof off in the snow. Real snow! Also, as I've said, I lived in Albuquerque, so it not only snowed on us but we also voluntarily went up to Sandia Peak to play in the several-feet-deep snow. And then there were those miserable Dallas winters... I can only find a few pics right now, but check these out. The first is my aforementioned birdbath fountain, followed by a March snowfall. In the latter three, note that my yard was COMPLETELY canopied by huge trees, so the fact that there's snow visible on the patio means it was blowing in.

http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/frozen_fountain_012303_6.jpg (http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/frozen_fountain_012303_6.jpg)

http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/snow_032003_01.jpg (http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/snow_032003_01.jpg)

http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/snow_032003_02.jpg (http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/snow_032003_02.jpg)

http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/snow_032003_03.jpg (http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/snow_032003_03.jpg)

[DoYouKubuntu]

today's high for Plover,WI, 2 above. Tonight's low, -6.

OUCH! I feel for you. The only time I saw below zero temps was on a trip to Chicago--in the dead of winter. :o The lowest temp I actually remember from living in Dallas was 6. You've got to admit, THAT is cold. *brrrrrr just thinking about it*

[richb]

You call that snow!

[bsniadajewski]

It won't be that way for long. Tomorow's high 9, Saturday's 16, SUnday's into the low 20's. It'll be getting a little warmer next week, but not like a week ago when we had ~40° days (the January thaw?).

[Snowhog]

If you can actually see your car, it hasn't snowed.
If you can make out the shape of your car under the snow, it hasn't snowed enough.
If you can no longer see your car or even the shape of your car, then it has snowed!

[SteveRiley]

You've never sat in a cockpit of a Cessna 172, have you? It does not have autopilot, and the windows are too small to do anything more than stick you head out, which I had to do once in a Cessna 152 in order to land when I had smoke from an electrical fire in the cockpit blinding my eyes. You are harnessed in and the wheel is about a foot from your belly or chest in flight mode. Besides, even if you could squat out the windows, "it" wouldn't fall straight down. The wind stream would blow it back at your empennage , and you could damage the tail structure enough to bring your plane down. That's also why flying into freezing rain is so bad. Chunks of ice flying off the wings or body could damage the tail section.


Actually, I've got about 25 hours flight time, in a 152 Aerobat and a 172. I love stalls and aileron rolls! Perhaps I should have ended question #2 with a ;D

[GreyGeek]

....
Actually, I've got about 25 hours flight time, in a 152 Aerobat and a 172. I love stalls and aileron rolls! Perhaps I should have ended question #2 with a ;D


Wow, another 20 hours, 70 points on the FAA exam and passing the FAA check ride and you'd have your "Land, single engine, Private Pilot" license!!! 8) So, you've experienced the JOY of being in command of an aircraft moving in 3 dimensions. It's an overwhelming sense of freedom, isn't it!!!

BTW, If you take a 172 into a spin you are a pilot for 1 1/2 turns, after that you are a test pilot! Good luck! ;D

[lcorken]

If you can actually see your car, it hasn't snowed.
If you can make out the shape of your car under the snow, it hasn't snowed enough.
If you can no longer see your car or even the shape of your car, then it has snowed!


You win.

http://garfield.nfshost.com/2000/09/17/
;D
Ken

[DoYouKubuntu]

You call that snow!

Hey, I SAID my yard was canopied by huge trees, so that's just what made its way in by blowing. ;D

[cavedweller]

I lived on the east side of the state where they are use to the snow. Did spend a few years between Tacoma and Renton. The older I get though the less tolerance I have for cold, snow, and stupid drivers. Here in Arkansas when it snows an inch it is some real funny .... to watch. ;D ;D ;D Every redneck in the area races to get in their 4WD with mudders on it, to show how fast they can shoot off the road, and get stuck.

[SteveRiley]

Wow, another 20 hours, 70 points on the FAA exam and passing the FAA check ride and you'd have your "Land, single engine, Private Pilot" license!!! 8) So, you've experienced the JOY of being in command of an aircraft moving in 3 dimensions. It's an overwhelming sense of freedom, isn't it!!!


Is there an expiration time for existing hours? My hours are all from one summer in 1988.

Yes, when your movement includes a Z axis, it suddenly becomes uninteresting to exist on a plane. Hm...isn't that interesting? We have to get into a plane to escape the confines of being on a plane. English is weird!