and again: the gui upgrade crashed..

[ricw]

as per usual, my dist-upgrade failed.

to start at the beginning: i kicked off the upgrade process (system settings->software..) and left my computer to do its job. upon returning to my computer, the kde notification panel told me that i had to restart to make the changes happen. i did so, upon which the system rebooted with only half the packages installed (probably even less). three hours and a manual upgrade attempt later the whole distribution seems weird and suboptimal, probably because some things are still missing..

my best guess as to why it failed is that a package replacement had to be forced (krsys?), though i have no direct evidence of this having caused the gui crash as i havent seen an error message.

i'm sorry for not being able to provide more information, but to be plain: this is quite clearly the dist-upgrade-gui's fault. its a badly written gui that doesn't even do the bare essentials properly (error handling) and that has in the past caused me a lot of headacke (the same has happened in all of the last three dist-upgrades). and it seems as if it is continuing to do so.

solution: 1. don't use the gui-upgrade-tool, 2. know linux/gnu/debian inside-out, 3. get a computer science degree.. quite some questionable advice.. in fact, after 13 years of using and contributing to linux, i've decided to dump it. its a piece of user-unfriendly software that i'm sick of wasting my time on.

[ardvark71]

solution: 1. don't use the gui-upgrade-tool, 2. know linux/gnu/debian inside-out, 3. get a computer science degree.. quite some questionable advice.. in fact, after 13 years of using and contributing to linux, i've decided to dump it. its a piece of user-unfriendly software that i'm sick of wasting my time on.


Hi....

I do understand how you feel. I've been testing and using various distributions of Linux since 2001 and I know well the frustrations of dealing with an OS that lacks (to an extent, not entirely) the ease of use and operability that Windows is well known for. My biggest challenge in using Linux was during few months between October 2006 to March, 2007 when I used Ubuntu 5.10 as my sole operating system and learned, from very little experience, how to go about fixing bugs and installing software of (and from) different package types and sources, including the 'ol "make and make install." ;) And if the software didn't work or work correctly, how to go about researching the problem on the internet and getting help from the folks at Ubuntu's forum. It was a pretty intense five months beginning to learn some of this but learn I did.

However, after five months of this, I began to grow tired of having to deal with the seemingly unending supply of little problems and glitches that would crop up and the fact that I missed some of the software that only works or works correctly in Windows, I decided to go back to Windows XP.

However, after giving Kubuntu 10.04 a try, (dual-booting with Vista,) I have been impressed on how much Ubuntu/kubuntu, and perhaps Linux as a whole, has improved since that time. All of the hardware on my laptop that I have used or tested so far has worked out of the box. Operating the scanner is not as good as it is in Windows but it does work. Still, this is a far cry from the days when I had my own non-profit (2001-2004) when we were using Red Hat 7.2 as our "standard issue" for those who wanted it installed on the systems we were giving away and what a chore it was trying to find hardware that was compatible with Linux at that time.

So, things have improved quite a bit. A lot of the problem has been with either non-existant or sub standard drivers for many different hardware devices although there is also a problem with poorly written software, as you have mentioned.

If at all possible, don't give up on Linux entirely. Take a breather and come back at a point in time later to see what has changed and what improvements have been and what remains to be done. Your contributions are important and they do make a difference. :)

Regards...

[The Liquidator]

Hmmmm.... your first post on this forum, after being a linux user for 13 years is to tell us what a load of crap our favourite operating system is ???

You appear to have left out no.4 - "ask for help"

I would say that attempting to upgrade a running system would inevitably be somewhat riskier than a clean install - you are after all attempting to upgrade a running system and I'm sure even windows wouldn't always get that right. That said, have you tried running


sudo dpkg --configure -a

which will usually reinstall improperly installed packages? That has been known to solve many problems such as this.

[chipbennett]

Hmmmm.... your first post on this forum, after being a linux user for 13 years is to tell us what a load of crap our favourite operating system is ???

You appear to have left out no.4 - "ask for help"

I would say that attempting to upgrade a running system would inevitably be somewhat riskier than a clean install - you are after all attempting to upgrade a running system and I'm sure even windows wouldn't always get that right. That said, have you tried running


sudo dpkg --configure -a

which will usually reinstall improperly installed packages? That has been known to solve many problems such as this.



(This is probably a dumb question)

Can I do this from a LiveCD session? I tried a dist-upgrade. The upgrader crashed during the last part of "clean up", and upon reboot this morning, I got some sort of recovery console (I can provide exact error message tonight, when I'm back at the laptop).

My hunch is that I need to re-install GRUB - which I know I can do from the LiveCD. But if it's some borked packages, can I fix that also, using sudo dpkg --configure a?

[The Liquidator]

Not a dumb question at all.

I wouldn't know how to go about fixing grub, sorry. But if by the console you mean you get <user name>@<computer name> then chances are grub is okay and you've got another problem, probably graphics.

First things first: Preferably connected to the net with a wired connection, Login at the prompt and type your password. Then type


sudo dpkg --configure-a

Password

You may then see activity whilst packages get sorted out.

Then for good measure


sudo apt-get update

to update the package list then


sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

Once everything has finished type


sudo reboot

To restart your machine.

With a bit of luck you might be up and running if not from the prompt type


startx

Let us know what error message you get

Edit: Also on the live cd point, do you have a separate home partition?

[chipbennett]

Not a dumb question at all.

I wouldn't know how to go about fixing grub, sorry.

I learned recently, when I migrated my install to a larger HDD. :)


But if by the console you mean you get <user name>@<computer name> then chances are grub is okay and you've got another problem, probably graphics.

If only. Unfortunately, I'm getting a prompt I've never seen before. It's either before, or part of, GRUB, as far as I can tell. (I only had a few seconds before leaving for work, so I wasn't able to diagnose fully - I just know that everything didn't go properly!)


First things first: Preferably connected to the net with a wired connection, Login at the prompt and type your password. Then type


sudo dpkg --configure-a

Password

You may then see activity whilst packages get sorted out.

Then for good measure


sudo apt-get update

to update the package list then


sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

Once everything has finished type


sudo reboot

To restart your machine.

With a bit of luck you might be up and running if not from the prompt type


startx

Let us know what error message you get

Skipping this bit for the time being, as I'm definitely not getting into a Kubuntu login prompt.


Edit: Also on the live cd point, do you have a separate home partition?


Absolutely! I learned that one the hard way, a few years ago.

If all else fails, I'll re-install from the LiveCD. I'll just have to go in and copy various config files and third-party packages. I'd just like to avoid it; I'd rather spend tonight watching football. :)

[The Liquidator]

Actually over the weekend I upgrade the better half's aspire 1 to ubuntu 10.10. I used the live cd to do it as I find any software update to be incredibly slow with the SSD and expected a full upgrade to do this.

I got an error message straight after the BIOS post to the effect that grub could not be found. During the install I had accidentally put it an incorrect partition. The only thing that came to me was to reinstall. I'm sure there are other answers though.

If you can post the message you're getting maybe someone can help you.

[dibl]

(This is probably a dumb question)



As was said long ago, "There are no dumb questions, only dumb situations resulting from the failure to ask a question." :)




Can I do this from a LiveCD session?



I believe the correct answer is "NO", however, as of the last version you could disconnect your computer from the Internet and use an Alternate CD, and do the upgrade, as said here (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades) (middle of the page).

[The Liquidator]

The upgrade with the 10.10 rc alternate cd just didn't work for me this time around. Running the command produced no response at all. A disk check produced no errors and on boot the disk gave me the option to install. I decided to get the live cd instead, just in case there was another problem.

I hope they have now fixed it.

[toad]

Can I do this from a LiveCD session?



I believe the correct answer is "NO", however, as of the last version you could disconnect your computer from the Internet and use an Alternate CD, and do the upgrade, as said here (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades) (middle of the page).



I would have thought that it is quite possible. Stick in the live CD, chroot into the current, non-functioning /, mount proc and sysfs to get a complete environment and then reinstall grub and do your dpkg commands. Is there anything which should prevent this from working?

@ chipbennett - I have also had mixed fortunes with dist-upgrades over the years. So much so in fact that I switched to a rolling release distro. There is a number of them out there (aptosid, mint debian and archlinux come to mind). Just a thought...

[ricw]

Hmmmm.... your first post on this forum, after being a linux user for 13 years is to tell us what a load of crap our favourite operating system is ???

You appear to have left out no.4 - "ask for help"

i don't need to ask for help. i know linux inside out. heck, i've even worked on the linux kernel code. this is more of a descriptive post that may (though highly unlikely) reach one of the kubuntu developers and highlight the unreliable upgrading process of kubuntu.. something that even microsoft can do without causing a headache. and i don't think kubuntu is crap, its simply failing even on basics (dist-upgrade, dual monitor, sound, just to mention a few..).

as for the grub problem: you can simply "reinstall it" into the mbr, even from the livecd, though it may be a tad complicated. it'll be a lot easier if you can boot into one of the installed kubuntu installs..

see the following link for a detailed description on how you reinstall/set grub up:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2

[chipbennett]

Can I do this from a LiveCD session?



I believe the correct answer is "NO", however, as of the last version you could disconnect your computer from the Internet and use an Alternate CD, and do the upgrade, as said here (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades) (middle of the page).



I would have thought that it is quite possible. Stick in the live CD, chroot into the current, non-functioning /, mount proc and sysfs to get a complete environment and then reinstall grub and do your dpkg commands. Is there anything which should prevent this from working?

Can you write this out in a way that someone who's not used half of those commands can understand and follow? :) I'd be happy to try, and then report back...


@ chipbennett - I have also had mixed fortunes with dist-upgrades over the years. So much so in fact that I switched to a rolling release distro. There is a number of them out there (aptosid, mint debian and archlinux come to mind). Just a thought...


Strangely, going from Hardy to Lucid proved to be no problem whatsoever. I normally wait a few weeks for dist-upgrade, just to make sure all the kinks are worked out. Didn't this time, because I didn't see too much that might potentially cause the upgrade to get borked. Oh well...

As for rolling-release distros: I like Kubuntu, and intend to stick with it, for better or for worse!

[chipbennett]

If all else fails, I'll re-install from the LiveCD. I'll just have to go in and copy various config files and third-party packages. I'd just like to avoid it; I'd rather spend tonight watching football. :)


p.s. if I end up going this route, is there any benefit to moving to EXT4? Or should I just keep my data partition as EXT3?

[toad]

Stick in your live CD, mount your borked Kubuntu install partition and then do:

sudo chroot /path/to_mounted_kubuntu_install
sudo mount -t proc none /proc
sudo mount -t sysfs none /sys

And take it from there :)

[chipbennett]

Stick in your live CD, mount your borked Kubuntu install partition and then do:

sudo chroot /path/to_mounted_kubuntu_install
sudo mount -t proc none /proc
sudo mount -t sysfs none /sys

And take it from there :)


Oh, that's easy! :)

And then I just do the sudo dpkg --configure a?

I'll give it a go this evening. Fingers crossed!

[chipbennett]

I think I found a similar error message. Someone on ubuntuforums (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1593269) reported the same thing:

error:
no such device...some numbers here..)
grub rescue>

Grub Rescue *is* the prompt that I'm getting when I try to boot - although I don't think I was getting "no such device" as the error. (I'll go consult The Google and see if I can remember what I saw this morning.)

[toad]

As for grub2 I can only recommend http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GRUB2#Using_the_rescue_console

Qqmike has written a comprehensive grub2 guide in this forum. Search and ye shall find :)

[chipbennett]

As for grub2 I can only recommend http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GRUB2#Using_the_rescue_console

Qqmike has written a comprehensive grub2 guide in this forum. Search and ye shall find :)


Found it (http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3106368.0). :)

Commencing reading...

[GreyGeek]

.....
I do understand how you feel. I've been testing and using various distributions of Linux since 2001 and I know well the frustrations of dealing with an OS that lacks (to an extent, not entirely) the ease of use and operability that Windows is well known for....


"... well known for .." ??? Comparing the operation of Windows with the installation or upgrade of Linux is hardly fair. There are so many assumptions and misunderstandings in that statement I cannot let it go by without a comment.

First, MOST Windows users do not have to install Windows. It comes preinstalled on most new PCs.

Secondly, when Windows users "upgrade" that usually involves buying a new PC because Microsoft "updates" do not include installing a completely NEW Windows OS over an existing installation.

Third, most Windows users cannot fix their system when an KB update fails or their PC gets clogged with spam, spyware, bots, viruses and Trojans. They take their machine to a computer shop and PAY to have it cleaned up or to have the techie use the recovery system reinstall the OS. BUT, if a Trojan keyboard logger has infected the recovery partition all they've done is re-infect their box but they set there dumb, fat and happy thinking they are running a clear and "secure" OS.

Forth, Windows being easy to use is a myth. Neither you, nor anyone else, was born with a knowledge of how to use Windows, the mouse, or where applications are located in the Windows menu structure, or the names of those applications and what they do. Windows is "easy to use" because its users have spent years learning to use it, mostly by trial and error, or reading Windows For Dummies books, or playing a some instructional DVD, or asking friends, or being tutored. Once habits (mind-set, skill-set) become ingrained they are hard to break. Expecting the word processor to be called Office Word and looking for it as that name in the Linux menu leads to frustration, but that is not the fault of Linux. Also, I've spent years watching data entry clerks, secretaries, shop employees, etc., using their Windows workstations. Some for over 10 years. IF, for any reason, the applications they are using fail to perform exactly as they have always used it, they become totally lost. Even when you place a sticky note on the wall of their cubical detailing exactly the steps they must use, from a freshly booted Windows, to run and use any particular app, if any step fails they are usually lost and cry for help. Most cannot tell the difference between the desktop itself and any particular app they are running, like Windows Explorer, or Word. IOW, they don't understand context. For those people it will make little difference which OS they are running, except that they will probably have had more experience with Windows and to them it will be "easier to use", even when it isn't.




...
Operating the scanner is not as good as it is in Windows but it does work. Still, this is a far cry from the days when I had my own non-profit (2001-2004) when we were using Red Hat 7.2 as our "standard issue" for those who wanted it installed on the systems we were giving away and what a chore it was trying to find hardware that was compatible with Linux at that time.


I find it amazing, and a testament to the SKILL of the FOSS programmers, and the quality of their code, that most current Linux distributions work "out of the box" on MOST current hardware. To understand how difficult this is you must realize that most PC and peripheral vendors to NOT share specifications or data on their equipment with any but Microsoft. (Apple makes its own hardware). FOSS coders must green-room their code and do trial and error development and testing. In fact, I have little doubt that the reverse is true ... that hardware vendors match their hardware to Microsoft's software. Even Microsoft does not have the money, resources, man=power and time to develop video drivers for a dozens of video devices on dozens of different makes and models of PCs and test each one, just like they don't support their OS but force the PC OEM pick up that expense while its under warranty. After warranty they'll be glad to take your CC number.

When a vendor does release a FOSS driver for a video chip, for example, it is just ONE source code file. No specs or documentation is included. It has to be modified by trial and error to run on every laptop which uses that chip. To make matters worse, not all PC OEMS use the same techniques, firmware, subchips, etc.. to implement the same video chip. Thus, for some folks the released driver worked fine for the Intel Mobile Series 4 chip (GM45) in their laptop, but it did not work for the same chip in my Sony VAIO VGN-FW140E notebook. It took months of working with the Xorg dev crew to get a driver which would give me accelerated video and 3D. The video driver that came with the VISTA Home Premium that came pre-installed on this laptop worked fine, except for the occasional "the LCD panel has disconnected...".

Now, consider the ATI legacy chip problem. When folks bought their PC with XP pre-installed 5 or 6 years ago their ATI X1200 chip worked perfectly with XP. Years pass by. ATI moves the X1200 to legacy status, meaning that their newest driver, Catalyst 10.2, does not include the ability to work with the X1200. The last Catalyst driver that did work with the X1200 was the 8.2 driver. IF your box has the X1200 and you want to try the 8.2 driver with Kubuntu 10.4 you'll find that the install will halt with the message that the 8.2 driver does not work with the current Linux kernel version. Catch-22. The old driver won't work with a new kernel, the new driver won't work with the old chip. The FOSS radeon driver does work for the most part, on most PCs, but not all. And, by some twisted logic, this is ALL the fault of Linux? Will VISTA or Win7 work on a 5 or 6 year old PC? No. But that's understandable?

There exists some hardware, rare as it is, on which Linux will not install, or if it can be installed it won't run well, if at all. I just threw away such a laptop. A 12 year old Tecera 8100. Even Puppy 5.1 wouldn't run on it reliably. Does that mean that Linux ****'s? Only if you are a Windows fanboi.

[The Liquidator]

I think I found a similar error message. Someone on ubuntuforums (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1593269) reported the same thing:

error:
no such device...some numbers here..)
grub rescue>

Grub Rescue *is* the prompt that I'm getting when I try to boot - although I don't think I was getting "no such device" as the error. (I'll go consult The Google and see if I can remember what I saw this morning.)



Now That's the message I got!

10.10 has changed the routine for grub installation and I didn't spot it. It used to ask me where I wanted grub to go (usually the MBR). However, I didn't spot it and believe I installed it to an SDHC card that is the /home directory in the netbook. In short I installed grub to the wrong partition.

I reinstalled as I wasn't sure where to take it from there. However, there is something here that might help

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows

[chipbennett]

I think I found a similar error message. Someone on ubuntuforums (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1593269) reported the same thing:

error:
no such device...some numbers here..)
grub rescue>

Grub Rescue *is* the prompt that I'm getting when I try to boot - although I don't think I was getting "no such device" as the error. (I'll go consult The Google and see if I can remember what I saw this morning.)



Now That's the message I got!

10.10 has changed the routine for grub installation and I didn't spot it. It used to ask me where I wanted grub to go (usually the MBR). However, I didn't spot it and believe I installed it to an SDHC card that is the /home directory in the netbook. In short I installed grub to the wrong partition.

I reinstalled as I wasn't sure where to take it from there. However, there is something here that might help

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows


Okay, so that sounds like good news! Sounds like a simple re-install of GRUB might do the trick?

[The Liquidator]

It's possible, although there's no money-back guarantee :)

[GreyGeek]

http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3113943.msg244049#msg244049

[chipbennett]

http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3113943.msg244049#msg244049


I think you just made my day! ;D

My Maverick LiveUSB is all ready to go. I'll give this a try first thing this evening!

[oshunluvr]

GG,

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly M$ windoze users forget ME, or the BSOD, or the hours upon hours of time spent trying to remove virus's that should have never been there in the first place, or that fact that they paid $100's of dollars for the privilege of being told to "reboot, power off and back on, re-install" by so-called customer support.

I can proudly claim that 95% of the system crashes I've had since switching to linux have been totally my fault! ;D

With windows - you don't even have to actually use it for bad stuff to happen.

Also, I am amazed at the number of people with little or no linux knowledge who'll happily install a beta version of a linux OS, update to a beta version of a desktop and then shriek when it has issues.

Equally amazing is how many of those people actually don't have issues.

For someone to install a cost free product as good as even the worst linux distro, and then complain about the results without even the decency to describe what needs fixing or to ask for help is absolutely mind boggling. And when you add in the idea that these same people would claim the superiority of windows - well, it takes all kinds. Personally, they can have their windows and the costs, and the data loss, and the virus's, and the malware, and I won't log on to their forums and complain about their choice. Good riddance.

I will continue my efforts to help those who ask, convert those who are willing to listen, and sigh when my favorite game won't run in linux. Maybe someday...

this reminds me of a quote from some where -

"The greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world he didn't exist"

re-written -

"The greatest thing Microsoft has ever done was to convince the world that they had the best OS"

If it wasn't for underhanded and illegal business practices, forced subscription, and purchased politic influence Microsoft wouldn't even be in business anymore. Too bad our government doesn't have the will to do what the EU has done many times and sue them into history.

[GreyGeek]

...[rant] It never ceases to amaze me how quickly M$ windoze users forget ME, or the BSOD, or the hours upon hours of time spent trying to remove virus's that should have never been there in the first place, or that fact that they paid $100's of dollars for the privilege of being told to "reboot, power off and back on, re-install" by so-called customer support.
......


Everyone for whom I have replaced their Windows installation with Linux asked me to do so when they discovered that they were infected, even though their box was up to date with the latest MS updates and the latest AV dat file, AND, since I don't do Windows they had the choice, pay to have their Windows box cleaned, and continue running the risk of getting owned, or allow me to replace Windows with Linux. ;D

Several of them had Keyboard logger Trojans and had to immediately change change their bank passwords and security questions, or close their CC and open a new one. Fortunately, none that I know have lost major money, but in the last month over 100 Windows users in this area had their bank accounts emptied after they used their debit card at a local golf club. The computer that did the financial transaction was a Windows machine with a keyboard logger infection. The police said the machine was current on all protection software.

::)

[chipbennett]

http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3113943.msg244049#msg244049


I think you just made my day! ;D

My Maverick LiveUSB is all ready to go. I'll give this a try first thing this evening!


I indeed had to reinstall/reconfigure GRUB. I'm back into my primary installation now. I'll try to write up a blog post over the next few days, detailing what (I think) I did to fix it!

Now, onto the next problem: why WICD no longer finds my wireless network...

[ardvark71]

"... well known for .." ??? Comparing the operation of Windows with the installation or upgrade of Linux is hardly fair. There are so many assumptions and misunderstandings in that statement I cannot let it go by without a comment.


Hi GreyGeek...

You seem to have taken offense with my post although none was intended. When I said said "ease of use," I did not mean in terms of installation and upgrading but rather everyday use. Actually, I have found the latest versions of Ubuntu/Kubuntu to be easier to install than Windows XP but they come fairly close. But this is just an opinion.

As far as my own personal experience goes, I have found software installation, in general, to be much easier in Windows than in Linux. With Windows, you download an .exe, double click it and it begins an installation process which isn't too difficult for most users to understand. With Linux, any number of things can happen and again, I'm saying overall. I would have to point out my experience trying to install and use my favorite version of moagg (http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3113722.0) as one of many examples. This most likely wouldn't have happened in Windows. The availability of package managers in Linux, although to an extent, limited, is an extremely helpful development as attempting to install from a tarball from a terminal is not my or, I think, most people's idea of a good time.

Is doing things through command line useful and powerful in certain circumstances? Sure. But most people are not going to accept the kind of experiences that I have gone through in trying to get software to install and/or work and they expect a GUI, at all times, to simplify the process. It needs to be predictable and "dependencies" should never be an issue.

I attempted to be fair in my previous post and I did compliment Kubuntu and Linux for it's major improvements in hardware detection and "out of the box" driver installations. I don't consider myself a "fanboi" of any particular OS. I like things about Windows as well as Linux and I don't give unquestioning loyalty to either one. I see the need for improvements in both. I like what works and works easily without a bunch of fuss. My clients expect this. ;) Would I install Kubuntu for a customer? Absolutely, if the expectations and conditions are right.

You are much more knowledgeable about Linux that I am so our perspectives are going to differ but I certainly don't want differing opinions to create animosity or tensions. :(

Regards...

[GreyGeek]

.....
As far as my own personal experience goes, I have found software installation, in general, to be much easier in Windows than in Linux. With Windows, you download an .exe, double click it and it begins an installation process which isn't too difficult for most users to understand. With Linux, any number of things can happen and again, I'm saying overall. ....


When you have to uninstall that EXE you have to go to the control panel, Add and Remove Programs, find it and click remove. Try that with the AOL or Yahoo or Norton Demo and see how well you fair.

With Linux you open Synaptic, locate the app you want to install using the search box. Mark it for installation, and click the Apply button. To remove it you mark it for uninstallation and click the Apply button. You don't have to manually download any file, locate it with a file manager and double click on it. IF you know the name of the app then it is a one line command in the Konsole:
sudo apt-get install appname.

IF there is a difference is is that with Kubuntu you KNOW EXACTLY what is being installed, what the dependencies are and there is no hidden malware. You have access to the source and can verify its integrity, although that is seldom necessary.

IF the Microsoft or the application doesn't want you to remove an app you can't.

Right now, the biggest disservice you can do to your customers is to not inform them of all the risks they are assuming to their personal and financial history by continuing to run Windows.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/10/avoid_windows_malware_bank_on.html
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/10/e-banking_on_a_locked_down_non.html

PS. NO offense taken, none given

[ardvark71]

PS. NO offense taken, none given


I'm glad, I appreciate your expertise and advice you have given to me and others. :)

Regards...

[The Liquidator]

[
Now, onto the next problem: why WICD no longer finds my wireless network...


I suspect that during the install process some network-manager components gave been installed. They don't play nicely together so you have to get rid of all traces of network-manager.

GG posted a list of the packages that need to be removed, but I can't find it at the mo and I have to get to work now! Speak later.

[Snowhog]

Re: Wireless Networking (http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3114061.msg244783#msg244783) and follow the link.