My Big Arch Move

[IgnorantGuru]

I recently migrated my primary system from Kubuntu Karmic/KDE4 to Archlinux with Openbox, so I thought I would share some of my experiences with the move.

First, a little background... The first linux I used seriously was SUSE, which I liked overall, but package maintenance was a PAIN (regardless of what they claim), and eventually it just started to feel too corporate and evil-empirish, like Windows. So a few years ago I moved to Kubuntu which I really like for its apt-get of course. But lately I've been grumbling a lot. I don't really like KDE4 - it's way too overdone and heavy, too much of a Vista-wannabe. I also don't like some of the decisions Ubuntu is making in general when it comes to packages, and especially the way the recent trend is to stop the user from removing some packages - too bossy lately. There are also security issues that IMO are beginning to enter the realm of Microsoft - things which I believe are not done for the benefit of the users. Thus I found myself having to remove and disable all kinds of junk after a fresh install. I've also had very poor results with reporting bugs in KDE and Ubuntu lately - they just aren't addressed, and there are way too many to begin with. The release cycle seems rushed, and quality is the loser in this. I was fighting against the distribution too much. That's when I began to realize it was probably time for a bigger change. I was reluctant because hey it's a lot of work to get used to something new. But it can also be cool, I kept telling myself, as I remembered how cool it was to lose Windows.

I ended up selecting Arch Linux because I liked a few ideas. One, it was supposed to have a good package manager comparable to apt-get (known as pacman). Also, I liked the rolling release idea, where instead of releases and upgrade/reinstalls, packages are just gradually updated to their latest versions every day. The install CDs have versions, but if you're running Arch, you're running the 'NOW' release. This is explained more here: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=18063 Most of all, I really like that Arch uses software packages that are presented the way the original makers designed. Mods and alterations are very minimal. I like this because I found so many of the bugs in Ubuntu are related to changes the packagers made which broke the functionality of the original software. Arch honors the original software rather than trying to make it fit a particular scheme - and this includes servers and daemons. I really REALLY like this idea because as we all know having a middleman introduces problems, and original developers take the time to make their software work more carefully than packagers.

I was also a little scared of Arch because it was supposed to be more work, less noob-friendly. I can handle some complexity, but frankly I don't enjoy having to do everything the hard way. There is something to be said for convenience. Plus using a mainstream distribution like Ubuntu has its advantages - lots of packages and support. But I decided to give it an honest chance.

I also decided I was going to drop KDE. It's only going to get more convoluted and Windows-like IMO, so I figured I might as well get on a more fitting track. So I was also shopping for a new desktop manager.


THE RESULTS

I have had a truly excellent experience with Arch. It is just so neat to set things up one step at a time, and I pleasantly learned more in a week about the inner workings of linux than I have in years of using Ubuntu. I really feel like I know my system now. It's also a simpler system, and I know what's running and why. It's also fast as hell! The few problems I did have, the community support and wiki were excellent - very knowledge people who like doing things themselves. Overall, my opinion is that any reasonably experienced Ubuntu user will feel right at home. You've probably edited a few configuration files, entered some CLI commands, and messed with the inner workings enough on occassion that you won't be lost in Arch. And in the long run I think it's MUCH LESS of a hassle, especially because you get a better understanding.

The 64 bit install CD (I used the net install CD) was a lot like the alternate install CD for K/Ubuntu. Same basic stuff. The main difference is that it just installs the core system, so you boot into a shell. Then you install Xorg, which I thought was really cool (and very easy). I've never installed Xorg by itself like that. Then the nvidia driver went in without trouble, also from a package. (Interestingly, it cured a problem I had with not being able to go back to a shell once X started in Kubuntu. Same nvidia driver, so once again it shows that the problem was in the Ubuntu package, not NVidia's driver or Xorg!) Then you choose your desktop and install that. Then you edit the xinitrc file to tell X to start your desktop! It's great knowing how it all fits together.

In my case I decided to go with Openbox desktop because it seemed to allow you to build your desktop the way you want. Openbox is very minimal at the start - you build your desktop by adding taskbars and such that you choose. This may seem like a lot of work, but it was really neat. I'm also running a few KDE apps that I like, and Openbox runs them with no problems. I chose lxpanel as my taskbar - works great and has a clock, quick-start tray, system tray, and a menu that automatically updates itself when you install software. Reminds me of KDE3.

The pacman package installer works very well. There were only a few programs that I wanted that it didn't have: rdate, google-earth, secure-delete, and crystal-cursors. rdate and google-earth had community-supported build packages available. These let you build the packages easily yourself and then install them with pacman. secure-delete I just copied the executables from my Kubuntu partition - they run fine. (The same was true of rdate, but that I built.) And I found crystal-cursors and compiled it. I learned great things about X cursors, so it was well worth the hour or so I spent with it.

Everything else, including media players, editors, KDE apps, image viewers and editors, servers, and open office were in pacman packages. Easy as using apt-get to install them. Plus they come out exactly as the original designers had in mind, which is neat to see - same as installing them from the websites for the most part.

One difference (which I like), is that when you install a server or daemon, such as NFS, it just puts the program on your system, it doesn't configure or start it. I never liked the way Ubuntu started things as soon as you installed them. This way I can look over the (usually simple) installation steps and decide how I want it to work. For example, to auto-mount a CD when I insert it, I installed the autofs daemon right from instructions on the wiki. Works better and solved problems I had with automounting/unmounting in Ubuntu.

And instead of all the init.d and /etc/modules complexity, there is one file (/etc/rc.conf) with simple lists of modules and daemons to start at boot. So much cleaner and easier to maintain.

My system has so much less running on it as a result - just what I need, rather than what every Ubuntu user might need. Part of this is due to dropping KDE as well. If you do want KDE, Arch is supposed to have a good implementation of it. There is also kdemod, which is a modified version of KDE for Arch (part of the Chakra project).

As for the rolling release, I really like it thus far. From what I've read, occassionally new package updates will break a program and you'll have to update your config files to correct it. But these potential problems are announced on the forums, and IMO that's simpler than going through the mess of upgrades and reinstalls, where so much changes at once. Plus, the package updates never change your config files - you do that yourself, and when using Arch you'll know how.

Aside from the apps I use, there are NO GUI 'system settings'. I maintain everything by editing the config files. But what I've found is that instead of finding this too messy or laborious, I like it a lot better. The config files have everything laid out cleanly and commented, and I have access to all of it. Whereas GUIs rarely give you complete control, and rarely work as well. I did have to learn a bit that used to be done in a GUI, but as a result I understand things so much better, instead of feeling confused and frustrated behind the GUI. But if you do like the 'system settings' stuff, if you can install a more bells & whistles desktop like KDE or Gnome - then you'll get some of that. It's just not made by Arch. They leave it up to you to decide what programs to install, REALLY. For example, I chose my sound server (alsa - which always worked great for me and I hated the pulse junk that Ubuntu went to. And yes, alsa can play several sounds at once - mix.)

Here are some of the wiki entries I used, more or less in the order I used them. You can look these over to get a pretty good idea of what you'll be doing once you've used the install CD to install the core. The wiki is THE place to go when you want to know how to install something. You'll usually find detailed instructions that work perfectly. Also, since everyone uses the same version of Arch (the NOW version), you don't have to wrestle with multiple sets of instructions. I find that the first few parts of the wiki instructions is all I use - the lower parts of the pages tend to be for more complex setups.

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Main_Page
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Official_Arch_Linux_Install_Guide
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Official_Arch_Linux_Install_Guide_Appendix
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xorg
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/X11_Cursors
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Openbox
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/CUPS
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Brother_MFC-420CN
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Configuring_network
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/IPv6_-_Disabling_the_Module
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ALSA
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HAL
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Autofs
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Sane

And the forums are at
http://bbs.archlinux.org/

Just keep in mind that until you get X and your desktop running, you won't have a (graphical) web browser. So if you don't have another computer nearby, you may want to print the basics first.

That may look like a lot of manual configuration, but I found it to be very smooth and also a neat experience. I also had many fewer problems than with a typical Kubuntu install - very few in fact. And I had my system done in a couple days (where I was using it as my primary system instead of Kubuntu which I still have on another partition), with a couple more days for spit & polish. And that's with my being a complete noob to Arch, and also trying out some alternative software to the ones I've been using.

K/Ubuntu was actually great training for Arch, because you tend to have to do a little manual configuring to get Kubuntu running the way you want anyway, and fixing problems. And Arch isn't for linux noobs, so I think Kubuntu still is useful. But if you now want to try building a more custom system from the ground up, I think Arch is an excellent choice. Overall my system is running faster and lighter, and I'm so glad to be free of KDE, while still having some of my favorite KDE apps.

And Arch still uses Grub v1! Although you can of course change that to v2 if you prefer.

Recommendations: I recommend keeping a backup copy of your Kubuntu home folder - you may want parts of it to look at, especially if you drop KDE but want to run KDE apps. There's not much, but it was handy a few times. Also, system backups are always great to have... http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_To_Backup_Operating_Systems Plus, instead of reconfiguring many of your programs, you can just copy their settings files from your home folder. For example, copy the ~/.mozilla folder and you won't need to set up Firefox from scratch.

I also like building my new system on a spare partition while still being able to boot my old partition. That way when I get frustrated or tired I get boot in to 'old reliable' and relax. I had Arch install grub to the MBR of my second drive, so it didn't interfere with the boot process. Grub2 detected Arch and added it with update-grub. Then when I was ready to change the boot to my Arch partition and grub, I just installed grub to the MBR of the first drive. Pretty painless way to try a new system, and it also lets you mount and examine your old system partition as you're setting up the new one.

Below are some software recommendations I'd thought I'd throw in. Everyone likes different things but these are what I'm using for now. And this will give an idea of the variety of apps you can have with Openbox and without full KDE.

First, lxpanel is a great taskbar. In fact the whole LXDE desktop is probably good, because I saw a lot of apps from it that had a nice light but capable design.

For the most part you install these just by typing 'pacman -S PACKAGENAME', and they're ready to run.

Ark
Knotes
Krusader (capable file manager from KDE)
Dolphin (simple file manager from KDE)
Speedcrunch (calculator)
GQView (like KDE Gwenview - or Arch has Gwenview as well)
GIMP
KGrab (from KDE, for window snapshots)
XSane
Firefox
flashplugin
jre (this pacman package install the 64 bit version of Sun Java with plugins - one step!)
KMail (still using it for now but I may look at others)
KWalletManager
Pidgin
OpenOffice
epdfview (like Ocular - very simply and light PDF viewer)
Kate
Ghex (Gnome's Hex Editor)
k3b (also needs dvd+rw-tools and cdrdao)
SMPlayer/Mplayer
VLC
avidemux
Htop (process watcher)
Konsole
autofs (automounts CDs/DVDs, usbsticks, and even networks if you want)
ttf-ms-fonts and ttf-dejavu (fonts)
imagemagick
libdvdcss
mpg123 (command line MP3 player)
vorbis-tools (for ogg123 command-line player)
alsa (for sound)

[dibl]

That is a very nice, detailed writeup -- thanks for taking the time to share it!

About a year ago I got itchy to give Arch a try, and I used my Asus Eee PC for that purpose. I must say that it was most educational. Over a long weekend I built a pretty nice, streamlined system with the slim login manager and gnome desktop. In the end, I found myself frustrated by some niggling little things that should not have been so difficult, like getting the correct time zone set and sticking, and when the next release of sidux came out at the first of this year, I threw sidux Xfce on it, which is what it is still running. But, for a person looking for an interesting Linux project, I also would recommend installing and configuring Arch.

[IgnorantGuru]

About a year ago I got itchy to give Arch a try, and I used my Asus Eee PC for that purpose. I must say that it was most educational. Over a long weekend I built a pretty nice, streamlined system with the slim login manager and gnome desktop. In the end, I found myself frustrated by some niggling little things that should not have been so difficult, like getting the correct time zone set and sticking, and when the next release of sidux came out at the first of this year, I threw sidux Xfce on it, which is what it is still running. But, for a person looking for an interesting Linux project, I also would recommend installing and configuring Arch.


I've heard good things about sidux too - it's one of the ones I considered. I haven't been around long enough to know, but I've heard the Arch installer was vastly improved in September (right before I used it, thank god!) FYI it asked me my time zone and set it up great - haven't had a problem and I don't even know where that's configured to be honest (not the Arch way, but I'm new). But I know what you mean about 'it shouldn't be that complicated' - even when I first tried linux many years ago I felt that way about it in general, until I tried SUSE and eventually Kubuntu. But Arch doesn't feel that way to me, maybe because I like the tinkering, and I was getting frustrated with others making choices I didn't like. And really I've had very few annoyances - mostly just choices to make and new things to try.

As for Xfce, I tried that some time back but it was too gnome-like and non-visually appealing to me. Openbox doesn't provide much more than a window manager, though, so it's kind of build-your-own. I enjoyed picking out the furniture for my new home - like making my own distribution, but with the simplicity of packages.

I have an EEPC too with linux, but that is my 'just works' computer. I have never reconfigured it or messed with it. In fact I used that to browse the web as I setup Arch. :) As long as I remembered which keyboard to type on for which screen it was great.

[GreyGeek]

Nice write up... well done!

What versions of KDE does Arch make available?

[IgnorantGuru]

Nice write up... well done!

What versions of KDE does Arch make available?


Thanks. Like I said, I've dropped KDE, so I haven't looked into it in detail. But Arch is very up-to-date by design, so they have the latest KDE (right now 4.3.3), and given the Arch philosophy, it's KDE as the KDE designers intended it - very few mods. I've heard good things about it, like it's one of the best KDE distros.

I also came across this... http://chakra-project.org/ Kind of the Kubuntu of Arch. In fact I almost installed it, but then decided to start from scratch and decide if I still wanted KDE (which in the end I didn't.) I may look into some of those kdemods at some point though, which Chakra is based on, just for KDE apps that I use. Basically I'm running the KDE4 apps I like but without Plasma and other stuff that makes up the whole KDE. It has been very easy to do that in Arch with Openbox at least.

And if you want to know anything in Arch, check the wiki first...
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/KDE

[toad]

Weyhey, nice to see another archer here - even if it is a little late.

Will be looking out for you over at the Arch forum :)

[IgnorantGuru]

Weyhey, nice to see another archer here - even if it is a little late.

Will be looking out for you over at the Arch forum :)


Ditto! I've been around there a bit - same nick.

[GreyGeek]

....
I also came across this... http://chakra-project.org/ Kind of the Kubuntu of Arch. In fact I almost installed it
....


I downloaded the 64 bit version, burned and booted it. After it asked me for my language it presented a menu of options. I tried the first two (free drivers and proprietary drivers). Both ending with a terminal prompt after complaining that it couldn't find the install medium. So, it forgets where it got the menu from after you chose a menu option.

[toad]

Yep, GG - the only time I tried chakra as a live CD it worked, but I think that was pure luck ;D

[IgnorantGuru]

@GreyGeek
I can't comment on Chakra - haven't heard all that much about it. But Arch is supposed to have a good KDE setup, and also has kdemod (which is what Chakra uses). (Arch doesn't mod much stuff, but in the case of KDE I guess they decided to do so). Like this former Kubuntu user comments (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=91232), it tends to get good reviews and runs faster. As for the standard Arch install, it's not all that involved if you're willing to follow instructions and setup a few things. I find I learn a lot doing it the Arch way, actually. I think anyone reasonably experienced with (K)Ubuntu can handle Arch.

As for KDE, though, after my apps upgraded to 4.4 I was even more unhappy, and am in the process of removing the last of my KDE apps. As hard as it can be to change desktops, I think now is a good time for users to 'reassess their relationship' with KDE. It seems to be going from bad to worse, at least from my perspective. I'm going to be posting an update on my blog in the next few days that details what software I have recently substituted for my KDE apps - I found some good ones out there.

[GreyGeek]

.....
As for KDE, though, after my apps upgraded to 4.4 I was even more unhappy, and am in the process of removing the last of my KDE apps. As hard as it can be to change desktops, I think now is a good time for users to 'reassess their relationship' with KDE. It seems to be going from bad to worse, at least from my perspective. I'm going to be posting an update on my blog in the next few days that details what software I have recently substituted for my KDE apps - I found some good ones out there.


I saw from your posting in that thread that you switched from KDE to OpenBox last December. How is that desktop working out for you?

I've been using KDE since 1.0 beta on SuSE 5.3 in September of 1998 and have grown very comfortable with it. While I have tried a variety of desktops over the years, none have the power, flexibility and functionality, IMO, that KDE has, which is why I have always remained with it. Also, seven years ago, I began using the Qt widget set to program in-house applications at work and fell in love with it as a dev tool. Since KDE is built with Qt my knowledge of Qt's API has helped me in my use of KDE. For example, a few weeks ago I was having problems with a bug in the repository version of Digikam. I reported the bugs I found to its dev group and found out that the bugs were fixed in their latest version, 1.30.1, IIRC. It was built with Qt so I downloaded the source, compiled it and installed it. Then, just a couple days ago, the KDE 4.4 updates came through and my Digikam install was replaced with the 1.0 version of Digikam for KDE 4.4. This grasshopper should have had more patience! ::)

By sticking with one desktop (and it doesn't have to be KDE) one can move from distro to distro with few problems. But, choice is one of the great blessings in Linux, and no one can force a desktop or API down users throats without the risk of driving their user base away. (Did you read that Ubuntu?)

Since I always run KDE, the principal reasons why I switch distros is 1) better hardware detection & configuration & compatibility, and 2) to avoid contamination with unwanted proprietary software, especially that which has its roots in the Evil Empire.

[IgnorantGuru]

I saw from your posting in that thread that you switched from KDE to OpenBox last December. How is that desktop working out for you?

I really like Openbox, but it is very barebones - you basically create your own desktop by choosing what apps you want, taskbar, etc. But Openbox is very standards compliant so its very easy to use anything. I've got a mixture of LXDE, KDE (phasing out), Gnome, and other components. Very stable and configurable. You can also read my followup (http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/followup-on-the-big-move/) from January.


Since I always run KDE, the principal reasons why I switch distros is 1) better hardware detection & configuration & compatibility, and 2) to avoid contamination with unwanted proprietary software, especially that which has its roots in the Evil Empire.


That's the problem to me with Ubuntu, as well as KDE itself. KDE seems to be courting Windows now - perhaps the Qt relationship has something to do with this. It's not just proprietary software that has evil roots - don't fool yourself there. I think it will be very hard to avoid that with KDE, now and especially as they keep going in the direction they are.

Re Qt, I'm thinking of writing a file manager and am pondering the IDE and GUI toolkit to use. I'm not up on the latest. What would you say are the advantages of Qt? It is associated in my mind with Windows now, and with the recent KDE, so I have a negative impression of it. Is that unwarranted? Is Qt 'true linux', or a Windows-Linux combo like MONO? I want to stay with a pure linux environment, preferably avoiding corporate-influenced tools. GTK is more appealing to me as a result, at least from that perspective.

[toad]

+1 openbox

As for a file manager, what is wrong with mc? krusader is nothing more than a hyped mc, no?

I'm afraid I haven't followed your gripes with KDE, but so be it. Outside the kde world I am not aware of any decent file managers :P So if you want to write one that would be just fine and dandy. afaiac gtk not only has a horrible interface but gtk apps are not portable in that they absolutely insist on gtk rendering libraries, i.e. they will always look absolute crap unless you want to wrap them, i.e. rewrite whole libraries for each and every app. This is not acceptable (at least not to me).

There is a variety of other gui stuff, but I reckon you'd best ask in the arch forum for decent advice, not some rambling of somebody who hasn't really got a clue (read me).

[IgnorantGuru]

As for a file manager, what is wrong with mc? krusader is nothing more than a hyped mc, no?

If you mean the text one, I would probably like that - I wrote something similar for DOS a long time ago. But with today's looooooong filenames I figure that would be a problem. And drag and drop is kind of nice, though usually I prefer the keyboard. I might have at look at mc though - thanks for the suggestion.

GTK does indeed have its issues. I need to do some exploring.

[lcorken]

I am a fan of multi bootable partitions with a seperate data partition and have used Kubuntu for several years now.

Some time last year I installed Arch on a partition. Couldn't get a desk-top to run. Some weeks later I booted Arch again and did an upgrade and KDE started to work. YES! No. Some weeks after that another upgrade broke it again. At that point I lost interest.

I do recommend Arch as a learning experience if nothing else. They have an excellent wiki and tutorials. You need a second computer close by to read all that though. I do suggest a second partition that just works in case something breaks. Some day I plan to try it again.

As far as the QT, MONO, MS, Sun, Apple, Interactions I don't know. Who knows, some day Google may buy Microsoft of visa versa. Maybe Oracle will dump Sun, Then what of OpenOffice and Mysql. China may own us all some day. :-\

I quit using Windows several years ago but still had to boot it once last year. Grr! ::)
Ken

[IgnorantGuru]

Also, Krusader is not only twin pane, but also supports tabs on each pane, so you can have a lot of folders open, which I like. Only other FM that does this is BSC (Beesoft commander), but the Arch package for that either doesn't work right, or it comes with no right-click context menu. Didn't look good at any rate. mc seems to be just twin pane, so I could use EmelFM2 for the same effect. Yet that doesn't seem to use Ctrl-C/V to copy and paste files, which bugs me, especially since it's limited to only two folders open (no tabs).

Twin-pane is actually less important to me than tabs - I just need a lot of folders open. So PCManFM isn't bad, but no user functions. I might try using the Open With... and using MIME to effectively create user functions in that. Otherwise I might try hacking its right-click menu.

Any any rate, I'm having a terrible time finding a replacement for Krusader. I wish they would drop its KDE dependency, but that's not likely to happen.

[toad]

@ lcorken
You need a second computer close by to read all that though.I use lynx :)

@ IgnorantGuru
Keep us posted - I am missing a decent file manager for my openbox ;) I do like tabs myself although I hardly ever use them in a file manager...

[GreyGeek]

I saw from .....
Since I always run KDE, the principal reasons why I switch distros is 1) better hardware detection & configuration & compatibility, and 2) to avoid contamination with unwanted proprietary software, especially that which has its roots in the Evil Empire.


That's the problem to me with Ubuntu, as well as KDE itself. KDE seems to be courting Windows now - perhaps the Qt relationship has something to do with this. It's not just proprietary software that has evil roots - don't fool yourself there. I think it will be very hard to avoid that with KDE, now and especially as they keep going in the direction they are.


"courting Windows"? I don't see that at the kdedevelopers blog (http://www.kdedevelopers.org). And, I haven't heard it from any other sources. Someone claimed that the "Locus OS" was a failed MS plasma, but that is not true. Qt itself is now owned by Nokia and is being developed by their subsidiary, Qt Software. They've moved Qt 4.5 (http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26014) and onward from a GPL license to an LGPL license. Before, there were only two choices: GPL or the Trolltech commercial license (one per developer at $3k for the first and $1.5K for annual renewal). I was the sole licensee where I worked. Licensing the other 15 developers was too expensive for the state agency I worked for. Now, there are still two license choices:


LGPL Commercial
Charge for development licensesNY
Changes to Qt source code must be sharedYN
Can create proprietary applicationYY
Technical support availableYY
Keep distribution licensing options openNY


This will level the playing field and remove the advantage the GNOME desktop gave to 3rd party developers but, unlike GNOME, what is NOT happening is making Qt4 or KDE4 dependent on proprietary software, from Microsoft or Nokia. The full license terms are explained here (http://qt.nokia.com/products/licensing). From the LGPL v 2.1:

"When a program is linked with a library, whether statically or using a shared library, the combination of the two is legally speaking a combined work, a derivative of the original library. The ordinary General Public License therefore permits such linking only if the entire combination fits its criteria of freedom. The Lesser General Public License permits more lax criteria for linking other code with the library.
...
the Lesser license provides advantages in certain special circumstances. For example, on rare occasions, there may be a special need to encourage the widest possible use of a certain library, so that it becomes a de-facto standard. To achieve this, non-free programs must be allowed to use the library."

So, while it may not be possible, in the future, to have an Ubuntu/GNOME desktop without making the .NET dependent MONO API the dependent desktop (or even system) API, one will never be locked by KDE into using anyone's proprietary API because the KDE4 desktop is built totally with QT4, which EVERYONE has the source to and on which there are no IP or patent "strings" attached.



Re Qt, I'm thinking of writing a file manager and am pondering the IDE and GUI toolkit to use. I'm not up on the latest. What would you say are the advantages of Qt? It is associated in my mind with Windows now, and with the recent KDE, so I have a negative impression of it. Is that unwarranted? Is Qt 'true linux', or a Windows-Linux combo like MONO? I want to stay with a pure linux environment, preferably avoiding corporate-influenced tools. GTK is more appealing to me as a result, at least from that perspective.


I believe your fears are unwarranted. There is a dev group undertaking the task of creating a KDE desktop for Windows. How they'd remove the XP, VISTA or Win7 desktop, or interact with the Windows kernel without having to hand off requests to components of those desktops is not clear to me. But, if they succeed, and folks see the power, speed, beauty and functionality of KDE on Windows, the next question they are going to ask is "If I can get all this power and beauty from KDE4, for FREE, but I have to buy Windows in order to run KDE on it, WHY BUY WINDOWS when get KDE4 on Linux." But, that effort has nothing to do with Qt4 itself, of KDE4, either. Part of the freedom of the GPL/LGPL is the ability to fork projects.

There is a Qt4 SDK, which includes QtCreator 1.3.1, out on their site:
http://qt.nokia.com/downloads/qt-creator-binary-for-linux-x11-32-bit
or
http://qt.nokia.com/downloads/qt-creator-binary-for-linux-x11-64-bit

In the past, in order to program with Qt4 on Windows, I had to buy MS Visual Studio C++ and use the commercial version of Qt4, which included an MSVC plug-in to make the Qt4 toolkit function within MSVSC++. With the new Qt4-sdk, the developer who replaced me only had to download the Qt-SDK kit for Windows and he dumped MSVS. I was also able to demonstrate that the VS 8.0 Express (free) could edit and compile Qt4 source on Windows, but QtCreator IDE blows away MSVS C++. (Kubuntu has QtCreator 1.30 in the repository, 1.3.1 is in the qt-sdk at the website)
So, rather than making a developer MORE dependent on Microsoft tools and API, the Qt4 package REDUCES a developer's dependency on Microsoft tools. So, IMO, any detriment is to Microsoft, not KDE or the KDE desktop.

As far as why Qt4 should be considered a tool with which to write GPL software, as opposed to using the GTK+, I would say that you should use what ever is comfortable for you, for what ever reasons that comfort arises. An excellent comparison is give here (http://www.wikivs.com/wiki/Qt_vs_GTK). From my own experience the most compeling features of Qt4 are:


VERY RICH visual controls with EXTENSIVE methods and properties for each control
Excellent documentation, tutorials, examples, etc.
Only ONE download, from ONE source, required to get everything. it's all in one file.
QOBJECT, the first line in every derived class, gives garbage collection, pointer cleanup, etc..
One can control naming of classes and methods, or let the designer name the action stubs
The Signal & Slot technology, with the "connect()" function is more powerful and easier to control than a call back function


Download the binary, run it. it will install everything. Open QtCreator and then click on "Quick Tour". The quick tour features, among other things, an example called "Address Book", which is a classic gui programming example. There are over 100 other project examples with GUI user interfaces (*.ui), and full source code covering a wide range of programming topics. Perhaps even something you can use as a filemanager. Use F1 to get to them. You can cut & paste from the examples, or modify them to create a whole range of apps VERY QUICKLY. You can even start from scratch with main.cpp, someapp.h and someapp.cpp as empty files, run "qt4-qmake" in the directory, followed by "qt4-qmake project" to create a someapp.pro file, then open it with QtCreator. Or, you can use QtCreator to start a project from scratch, using any number of templates.

You can, with careful use of compiler defines, write a single set of source codes for your application and compile it without changes on either Linux or Windows. I've done that. The defines also controlled the intialization of PostgreSQl (on Linux) or Oracle (on Windows) and involved the insertion of appropriate SQL coding for the various QSql* API classes that were used. My only complaint about Qt and C++ is that I wish they had been available when i switched from coding console based apps using AREV to writing GUI apps using Borland's Turbo C++ 1.5, PowerBuilder, VB 3.0 and then Visual FoxPro 5.0 and following.

[IgnorantGuru]

@GreyGeek
Thanks for all the info! I spent all day hacking PCManFM to add a user function - success! I really don't like C. I actually did try a little Qt app with Python bindings. It seemed okay but I'm not sure. I miss the likes of Visual Basic - nice IDE that handles so many of the details. What I really need to do is build a prototype in a few environments and see which I like. In the meantime I plan to use PCManFM, hacking it a little. By tomorrow I plan to remove Krusader, and with that all the KDE components left on my system.

I can't say I agree with your assessment of the direction KDE is going in, but time will tell. Already I see the name "Windows" is coming up in many KDE announcements. A few years from now you'll be heard to say, "There was this guy on Kubuntu Forums that told me this would happen!" ;)

@toad
I'll share my PCManFM hack shortly on my blog. I hijacked the F4 Open Terminal function so that it runs a custom script, passing it all the selected files on the command line. I can do a lot with that - that way I can edit files by pressing F4 like in Krusader. The custom script can use MIME to determine the type of each file and do whatever I want with each type. PCManFM already has tabs that work pretty well. No twin pane but that's not too critical, and is probably beyond my ability to add in without years of work. :) I can add a few more user functions without too much difficultly I think, but after looking at the situation I don't think I need too many, if any. It's really not a bad FM. IMO it's one of the better-designed ones - they could just make it a little more capable.

[GreyGeek]

@GreyGeek
Thanks for all the info! I spent all day hacking PCManFM to add a user function - success! I really don't like C. I actually did try a little Qt app with Python bindings.


My pleasure! I love Python but it is not necessary when using Qt4 and QtCreator.



It seemed okay but I'm not sure. I miss the likes of Visual Basic - nice IDE that handles so many of the details. ...


I used to use VB 3.0 to make a living. If you liked it you'll LOVE QtDesigner and how it works. In VB (like in Visual FoxPro) your GUI window was your app. In Qt4 it can be but doesn't have to be. (That was the case with Qt3, however!) . It can be in several cpp and h files, or it can be all in one gigantic cpp file, if you are so inclined, leaving the ui file as just another component of the app. It's saved by the designer in xml format anyway. There are folks who write their ui file manually, without the designer! :o The code in VB was "behind the control". I prefer the code in one cpp/h file set for each form, for easy editing, but you can be as flexible as you want.

When you drop a button onto a form in Qt4 you have properties available in a side panel, as I've shown in the attached graphic of the "PersInfo" tab of the homestead 2008 application I wrote at work. You can see the "Edit" button, given the name "ui.btnEditPersInfo", is highlighted so that its settings can be set or altered in the right side panel. Besides the right panel there are a ton of dialogs activated by the mouse keys which are contex sensitive.

In the initialisation code for the homestead object I bound the form created using the QtDesigner, homestead.ui, to the "ui" object

ui.setupUi(this); // draw the gui interface object "ui" which was declared in homestead.h

and put the connect command:

connect(ui.btnEditPersInfo, SIGNAL(clicked()), this, SLOT(editPersInfo()));

which connects a clicked() signal on the "ui.btnEditPersInfo" button to the "editPersInfo()" function, which is shown below. I also set the label for that button in the same section:

ui.btnEditPersInfo->setText("&Edit"); // Alt+E is the hot key



void homestead::editPersInfo() {
if (ui.btnEditPersInfo->text() == trUtf8("&Edit")){
ui.leStatus->setText("PersInfo edits enabled!");
enablePersInfo();
} else {
if (!persEditsOK()){
return;
}
Recalculate();
UpdatePersInfo();
disablePersInfo();
}
}

The edit button was declared in the homestead.h file as a private slot:

private slots:
....
void editPersInfo();
....
just as the ui object was declared as a private var:

private:
Ui::homesteadUi ui;





I can't say I agree with your assessment of the direction KDE is going in, but time will tell. Already I see the name "Windows" is coming up in many KDE announcements. A few years from now you'll be heard to say, "There was this guy on Kubuntu Forums that told me this would happen!" ;)


The name "Windows" appears precisely because they are making a push to make Qt4 and QtCreator a competitive tool on the Windows desktop. How else could you do it without saying "Windows"? ???

I've been wrong about things before and I probably will be again, but about KDE turning to the Dark Side I can't see it. They don't have a "de Icaza" pied piper, they aren't pushing a tool that has closed source, proprietary components (like COM, ASP, etc...), so their "Free" really means FREE, not free with strings or hidden time bombs. The GTK+ is licensed under the GNU LGPL 2., too, so what has Qt4 done that GNOME/GTK+ hasn't done? You don't seem troubled with the idea of using the LGPL GTK+ toolkit, nor, apparently, do you think it is not contaminated by de Icaza's binding of the GTK+ to MONO, or the probability that de Icaza will carry through with his plans to rewrite GNOME using SilverLight (MoonLight). Now, THAT is REAL contamination with Windows. NOTHING like that is planned for KDE... the community wouldn't stand for it.

[IgnorantGuru]

You're stressing open source, non-proprietary, free license, and these are important qualities, but there are many more nuances to 'desirability'. Who is developing the code and why? At the behest of whom, and why? WHY is Qt4 so comfortable on both Windows and Linux? Who made it so and why? What did that accomplish? The fact is, many Linux/KDE developers are also Windows developers, and they get paid as each. It's natural for them to create bridges between the two - that doesn't necessarily make it good for Linux. Some very high percentage, like 85%?, of the linux kernel is now developed by paid developers working for corporations with various agendas. These developers aren't doing this for the 'linux community' as whole, open source or not. Further, even if some developers are 'good guys', there is a hierarchy there, and many of the top devs on major corporate-influenced projects like KDE are simply not working for you or I, IMO.

You seem to be 'in the business', and like the devs use both Windows and Linux, so you may not notice this merging the same as I. What it comes down to is that KDE is becoming increasingly Windows-like. Almost all their major decisions lately go against my instincts - they are the opposite of what I would have liked. Bloat, tangled dependencies, poor handling of user's data, unnecessarily required servers, very questionable choices of servers... the list is long. Do I really need nepomuk, akonadi, soprano, virtuoso, phonon and other servers bogging down my CPU, consuming large amounts of RAM, and introducing security issues just to run KMail? According to KDE, I do, even though I can stop all of these 'required servers' and KMail runs fine (even better) without them. That is just one example of how KDE is doing Microsoft-like things.

Their quality control is very poor too - another MS-like symptom. Almost none of the bug reports I submitted were addressed. With the recent KDE 4.4, KMail users found KMail consuming an amount of RAM equal to the amount of mail files they had. Others found Nepomuk taking over 1G of RAM.

At any rate, I realize this is a KDE forum - not trying to upset everyone. I used to think very highly of KDE and I've used it for years. But it's changing, and IMO not for the better.

[IgnorantGuru]

Also thanks for the snapshot and discussion. VB was one of the few things I thought MS did well. And you're right that Qt has some similarities. I can't say it's my dream IDE though. But I may look at it some more.

[GreyGeek]

You're stressing open source, non-proprietary, free license, and these are important qualities, but there are many more nuances to 'desirability'. Who is developing the code and why? At the behest of whom, and why? WHY is Qt4 so comfortable on both Windows and Linux? Who made it so and why? What did that accomplish?


There is no sinister agenda, like the one de Icaza has. Qt4 has always been designed as a cross-platform tool. Were it not for that fact I would not have heard about it and been able to use it in place of Microsoft's MFC toolkit. Previous to Nokia buying it one had to install minGW in order to avoid MS tools. Now one doesn't. I used to be against porting KDE or KDE apps to Windows, but after I saw how it helped my replacement avoid the MS tools that I had to use I changed my mind. KDE on Windows will, IMO, do more to move Windows users to Linux than it will move Linux users to Windows.




The fact is, many Linux/KDE developers are also Windows developers, and they get paid as each. It's natural for them to create bridges between the two - that doesn't necessarily make it good for Linux. Some very high percentage, like 85%?, of the linux kernel is now developed by paid developers working for corporations with various agendas. These developers aren't doing this for the 'linux community' as whole, open source or not. Further, even if some developers are 'good guys', there is a hierarchy there, and many of the top devs on major corporate-influenced projects like KDE are simply not working for you or I, IMO.


I disagree. There is no crime in being paid by a corporation to developer GPL software, even if it is to help the corporation make Linux more useful for them, AS LONG AS their contributions REMAIN under the GPL. The exact breakdown for the 2.6.30 kernel is given here (http://lwn.net/Articles/334721/). Coders employed by Red Hat signed off on 42% of the changes that went into the 2.6.30 kernel. Unfortunately, Novell was at 13%, Intel at 10% and the rest were half that or much less. Frankly, I appreciate Intel's contribution to the kernel, which enabled by GM45 video chip to perform well. Without their GPL contributions this notebook would have had to stay with VISTA if I wanted to use it.




You seem to be 'in the business', and like the devs use both Windows and Linux, so you may not notice this merging the same as I.


Actually, I have been retired for about 18 months. For the last 5 years of my working career I wrote software using Qt4 exclusively, and primarily under a Linux system, and this in a place which was essentially a Microsoft shop. After I'd develop and test under Linux against PostgreSQL I'd copy the source to my XP side and compile to create an EXE that was published to the network server.



What it comes down to is that KDE is becoming increasingly Windows-like. Almost all their major decisions lately go against my instincts - they are the opposite of what I would have liked. Bloat, tangled dependencies, poor handling of user's data, unnecessarily required servers, very questionable choices of servers... the list is long.


Since I began useing it 11 years ago I have always liked the "Windows" format. Even GNOME is "windowy" in its approach. In fact, ALL linux desktops use the "Windows" (or Mac) approach that was pioneered at Xerox's Palo Alto research center. As far as who is copying whom, I've noticed that features appear in KDE4 FIRST, then showed up in VISTA and then Win7. Folks are calling Win7 a KDE4 knockoff.

BTW, there is no "bloat" in KDE, any more than there is bloat in GNOME or XFCE, etc. Bloat implies that unused crufty legacy code is lying around, as it is in Windows, making the executables larger than they need to be. Such is not the case. In fact, it was to avoid crufty code that Trolltech designed Qt4 from the ground up instead of starting with the Qt3 code base. And, coders do not write in code which isn't used. Some code may be included but commented out, but the compiler removes comments from compiled code anyway. That you don't use a particular feature doesn't mean that it is bloat and should be remove. In any particular app folks probably use less than half the features, but different folks use different features and probably all of them end up getting used by some one, some time.



Do I really need nepomuk, akonadi, soprano, virtuoso, phonon and other servers bogging down my CPU, consuming large amounts of RAM, and introducing security issues just to run KMail? According to KDE, I do, even though I can stop all of these 'required servers' and KMail runs fine (even better) without them. That is just one example of how KDE is doing Microsoft-like things.


I don't know. Do you? If you do they are there. If you don't, remove them. Having them available isn't a "Microsoftian" thing. They are options you can chose or ignore.



Their quality control is very poor too - another MS-like symptom. Almost none of the bug reports I submitted were addressed. With the recent KDE 4.4, KMail users found KMail consuming an amount of RAM equal to the amount of mail files they had. Others found Nepomuk taking over 1G of RAM.

At any rate, I realize this is a KDE forum - not trying to upset everyone. I used to think very highly of KDE and I've used it for years. But it's changing, and IMO not for the better.



Quality control is, in many cases, dependent on the eye of the beholder and the hardware being used. The long standing FOSS dictum is "publish early, publish often". Why? Because most coders (save for the kernel) are NOT paid by corporations to write GPL code. They do it in their spare time, on their equiment, at their expense. They can't afford "beta testers" to hammer the app on a wide variety of equipment and report bugs directly to them. They depend on the Linux community for that in a quid pro quo exchange -- you get to use free software if you will help the developer to find the bugs he or she misses. I like that agreement. Even though some bugs I report on don't get acted on I know why. The coder has a list of bugs and a limited amount of time, so he fixes the highest priority bugs first. The LAST thing I should do is rag on him or her because he or she did not fix the bug I reported ASAP or didn't add the feature I wished for, etc... That happened a lot with the release of KDE4, and most of it was undeserved.

[IgnorantGuru]

Okay toad and others interested can check out my mod of PCManFM (http://igurublog.wordpress.com/downloads/mod-pcmanfm/) which adds user-definable functions via a script. The script makes it highly customizable.

I've switched over to this from Krusader and I'm actually very pleased with it. In fact in some ways I like it better. This is a good file manager with this addition. Let me know how it works for you. I'll probably polish it a little more but it's very time-consuming working with this code.

I included a script which does the building and installation automatically. I tested it on Arch but it should work on Ubuntu as well. Or you can do a manual build - it's easy.

http://igurublog.wordpress.com/downloads/mod-pcmanfm/

[toad]

Great, have you considered doing a couple of screenshots, starting an arch thread and putting it in the AUR?

[IgnorantGuru]

Great, have you considered doing a couple of screenshots, starting an arch thread and putting it in the AUR?


Screenshots wouldn't amount to much - just the Tools menu shows a few extra items. And I may add them to the right-click menu as well. You can see PCManFM screenshots here...
http://pcmanfm.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
(Of course appearance varies depending on your GTK theme.)

Arch threads are here (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=91426) and here (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=67656/).

As for the AUR, I may look at that once I'm done tinkering with it. I don't want to hijack the original program name on the AUR though, so I'm not sure what to do about that. Any idea what the convention is? For now the installmod script I included is very much like a PKGBUILD.

[toad]

Any idea what the convention is?I'm a frayed knot...

[IgnorantGuru]

I'm glad to report my system is KDE free now. I thought I would share my list of apps I used to replace my favorite KDE apps...
http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/kde-free/

[GreyGeek]

With these changes, I was finally able to remove kdelibs and all its junk – soprano, nepomuk, akonadi, strigi, phonon, etc. I am KDE free. To give you an idea of just how bloated and over-dependent KDE has become look what I would have to install just to install a simple file manager like Krusader:

Targets (17): clucene-0.9.21b-1 strigi-0.7.2-1 libiodbc-3.52.7-3
virtuoso-6.1.0-1 soprano-2.4.0.1-1 qca-2.0.2-2
polkit-qt-0.95.1-1 phonon-gstreamer-4.3.80-2 phonon-4.3.80-2
shared-desktop-ontologies-0.2-1 attica-0.1.2-1 kdelibs-4.4.0-4
oxygen-icons-4.4.0-1 rarian-0.8.1-1 libssh-0.4.1-1
kdebase-runtime-4.4.0-3 krusader-2.0.0-3

Total Download Size: 73.75 MB
Total Installed Size: 205.80 MB

Proceed with installation? [Y/n] NO THANKS

So long KDE… have a nice trip becoming a Windows 7 clone.


That's really hitting below the belt, IgnorantGuru... :(

What you call "bloat" I call Libraries. You remember those, don't you ... small collections of functions that more than one program can access at the same time WITHOUT having multiple copies of it in memory at the same time? libiodbc, for example, may have been part of Krusader's requirements but that doesn't mean that it will be used ONLY by Krusader, or that another copy will be downloaded by another app. That same can be said for ssh, oxygen icons, kdelibs, etc. Those libraries may already be on the system and don't have to be downloaded, and certainly most are used by other applications and utilities. You write as though they are something "extra" that no other program needs and thus imply the Krusader is "bloated". Really unfair.

To avoid multiple installation of libraries is why why programs are usually compiled as dynamic, not static, binaries. However, a decade ago most folks had only 512KB of RAM, or 1 MB tops. Running dynamic binaries was important to avoid "bloat" -- eating up RAM with multiple copies of the same library. Now, with dual and quad core, Gigabytes of RAM and Terrabytes of HD, program size is not so important, so even that kind of "bloat" is unimportant for most folks running machines less than 2 or 3 years old.

So long, IgnorantGuru. Hope you enjoy Arch.


BTW: I visited Arch to give it a look-see. I also visited the forum. It would be interesting for folks to browse the Arch forum and this one, and compare the nature of the problems posted on each, and what solutions are necessary. I thought about installing Arch as a guest OS, but decided against it. It is very obvious that these two distros are targeted at different audiences, as are the desktops.

[IgnorantGuru]

That's really hitting below the belt, IgnorantGuru

I don't think so - it's how I see it honestly. It wasn't so much a jab as a note to KDE that I'd don't like their direction. Of course the trouble I went through to remove all KDE components from my system should be a clue that I'm no fan of KDE4.


You write as though they are something "extra" that no other program needs and thus imply the Krusader is "bloated". Really unfair.

Simply put, if I want to run Krusader on my system now, I have to install all of that. And many of those components aren't even required by Krusader- they are merely listed as dependencies of kdelibs even though Krusader runs fine without them. To me this is bloat. You can avoid that reality semantically, but the fact is I'm not going to install 225MB to run a file manager. And with what that 225MB consists of - namely servers I DON'T want running on my system, I'm not going to install it for that reason either, even though I like Krusader. This is bloat-happy design intrinsic in KDE4.

But it's their desktop, their rules. I didn't like the new rules so I moved on. And it's safe to say you and I see things differently, so we're not going to agree at this point. You'll come around. ;)


So long, IgnorantGuru. Hope you enjoy Arch.

Thanks. KDE aside I think this is a great forum and a great group of people. In fact Kubuntu Forums is one of the best Linux forums on the net IMO. It's the only part of KDE I'll really miss. And I still intend to make my stuff as (K)Ubuntu-friendly as possible. I try to keep things generic Linux when possible.


BTW: I visited Arch to give it a look-see. I also visited the forum. It would be interesting for folks to browse the Arch forum and this one, and compare the nature of the problems posted on each, and what solutions are necessary. I thought about installing Arch as a guest OS, but decided against it. It is very obvious that these two distros are targeted at different audiences, as are the desktops.

It is a different world in some ways. Hard to judge it just by problems, though. Archers tends to be bold and thus get themselves in deeper trouble. I've actually encountered fewer problems using Arch than I did using Kubuntu, FWIW. And the solutions were pretty much on par with what I had to do to resolve hiccups on Kubuntu. One difference is the Arch updates tend to break things a little more, so you have to be prepared to do a little when you choose to do an update. Usually there's no problem. And the solutions are usually already being discussed. The good news is you don't have to go through the 'new release' thing. You fix little breakages as the software changes. It's a different model, but it works well. The one bug I submitted to Arch was addressed, fixed, and in the repos in a day! I was shocked after having reports ignored for so long.

So I'd recommend trying it yourself and getting a feel for it, maybe on a spare partition. But to each his own - I'm certainly not saying everyone should use Arch just because I changed. :) I think a little cross-distro discussion like this is healthy - keeps us on our toes.

Thanks for all your info again. I un-rusted my C skills a little patching PCManFM, so I might give QT a try a some point and see how I like the IDE. I'm no great fan of GTK either, BTW. We'll see what develops.

[Snowhog]

@IgnorantGuru

Thank you for all the assistance you have provided to us. Your scripting talents are greatly appreciated and I really like your ksrcubber script - used it tonight.

I hope that we will see you here now and again, so don't become a stranger.

[dibl]

u

Thank you for all the assistance you have provided to us.

I hope that we will see you here now and again, so don't become a stranger.



+1 :)

[Qqmike]

+1
(of course)

[IgnorantGuru]

Very much appreciated, and my pleasure! I'll be around. Plus I still maintain a Kubuntu system.

[Telengard]

Hey Iguru I've been enjoying perusing your blog. You've got some interesting thoughts to share, and I especially enjoyed your piece on Root.

Arch looks interesting, though I am not sure why one would choose it over other distros. Sidux also does rolling releases for example, and that way I can keep the APT I love.

I understand your feeling that KDE4 is too heavy and complex. Even though I use and enjoy it on Jaunty, I know that it really is way more desktop than I really need. I do most of my important work in Konsole anyway, with the biggest exceptions being Firefox, SMPlayer, OpenOffice and a few other GUI apps. I still find the desktop quite useful in many ways, and if I am going to have one then I want KDE.

Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but when and how did KDE lose your trust?

[kubicle]

That's really hitting below the belt, IgnorantGuru

I don't think so - it's how I see it honestly. It wasn't so much a jab as a note to KDE that I'd don't like their direction. Of course the trouble I went through to remove all KDE components from my system should be a clue that I'm no fan of KDE4.

I'm with Greygeek on this one (although you're certainly entitled to your opinion). KDE's extensive and consistently used libraries are considered by most to be one of the strong points of KDE. It allows the apps to be relatively light-weight and results in the least amount of resource overhead when running multiple KDE applications.

Of course it may not be optimal in the special use case that you only wish to run one (or two) KDE applications, but I still think it's not the best argument for KDE being bloated.


Targets (17): clucene-0.9.21b-1 strigi-0.7.2-1 libiodbc-3.52.7-3
virtuoso-6.1.0-1 soprano-2.4.0.1-1 qca-2.0.2-2
polkit-qt-0.95.1-1 phonon-gstreamer-4.3.80-2 phonon-4.3.80-2
shared-desktop-ontologies-0.2-1 attica-0.1.2-1 kdelibs-4.4.0-4
oxygen-icons-4.4.0-1 rarian-0.8.1-1 libssh-0.4.1-1
kdebase-runtime-4.4.0-3 krusader-2.0.0-3

Installing recommended packages by default is not a kde thing, it's a distro decision (and a debian/ubuntu default), and sometimes it will install things you don't actually need. In *buntus, you can use 'sudo apt-get --no-install-recommends install krusader', that won't install recommended packages (only required dependencies) and will likely slim down the number of packages installed.

I'm running Arch on a spare machine and it's a very nice distribution (sort of reminds me of BSD), with upsides and downsides like all distributions. It's one of the best if you wish to build a light-weight installation from the ground up, which looks like what you're trying to accomplish.

[IgnorantGuru]

Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but when and how did KDE lose your trust?


You put it perfectly there - they lost my trust. Too many choices which I found highly questionable. But I think I've explored them enough for now. People in love with KDE aren't going to hear it, and that's okay. I think you'll see it grow worse though, so keep your eyes open. That's why I've been proactive about getting off the KDE track - I don't want to be dragged along.

[Telengard]

Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but when and how did KDE lose your trust?


You put it perfectly there - they lost my trust. Too many choices which I found highly questionable. But I think I've explored them enough for now.

You brought up trust in the post Followup On The Big Move « IgnorantGuru's Blog (http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/followup-on-the-big-move/). Now I want to know what you mean by that. What were those choices? What exactly are the technical or policy reasons that KDE has lost your trust. What has KDE done which was so bad that you have abandoned it on your own PC and now advise all of us to "watch and see".

Again, I totally respect your right to run any desktop you like or none at all if you choose. I just want to understand your reasons so that I can know what evil I am supposed to be watching out for.

[IgnorantGuru]

@Kubicle
soprano, akonadi, nepomuk, phonon, strigi, virtuoso - these are not just libraries. They are servers which KDE wants running on my system, and goes to great lengths to keep running regardless of what a user may prefer. They're writing everything around them and creating dependencies where they don't need to be. Many of these have poor security histories, and they can consume huge amounts of RAM and CPU, drastically changing the performance of the system. I consider them a collection of de facto viruses and trojans, frankly. IMO these inclusions and others are very questionable - I don't believe they are aimed at serving the user or making the KDE experience better. Add to this the great length KDE is going to to make them difficult or impossible to remove. If this were a chess game, they are prepositioning their pieces. It's early yet so it's hard to see. And maybe you won't mind where they're going - perhaps you run Windows as well and don't mind this sort of thing. I do - that's why I left Windows, and why I left SUSE. But I can't prove it to you and I'm not trying to. It's just my interpretation from lots of little observations. At first I just thought it was poor decisions. But a pattern has emerged - one which told me it was time to get rid of KDE. Every decision and annoucement from one version to the next only convinces me of this more deeply. If I suddenly see a change of direction, I'll acknowledge that. But that's not what I've been seeing.

Linux is increasingly influenced by commercial, corporate, and other forces. Choose components carefully. And where you are denied that choice, ask why.


Installing recommended packages by default is not a kde thing, it's a distro decision

It's both, because KDE is doing the recommending (and they call them "required"), and the distros comply. Further, KDE is increasingly making programs refuse to start without them, rather than writing them in an optional way. This is an Ubuntu trend as well - don't give the user control of what is running. Try removing nepomuk with your package manager. I'd like to see that.

At any rate, if you enjoy KDE and don't mind what they're forcing you to run on your system to use it, then there's no reason for you to change.

[IgnorantGuru]

Again, I totally respect your right to run any desktop you like or none at all if you choose. I just want to understand your reasons so that I can know what evil I am supposed to be watching out for.


I'm really not trying to convince others - I'm just sharing my own working conclusions and my methods for moving away from KDE. If you've read my blog then you've heard mention of most of the issues which bug me. If you're concerned, explore some of the history and details of each component running on your system and see what you think. Frankly, I could write a whole book about what I don't like in KDE4. But I'd rather move on - I've got a whole list of alternative apps on my desk that I want to try out today, and some of them look cool! I spent enough time dealing with KDE & Ubuntu issues. That's your problem now. :) That why I invested the time in moving away from them - so I wouldn't have to spend my time on those issues, especially as I see them going from bad to worse.

If nothing else, just keep your eyes open to what they're doing with KDE - always good advice regardless of whether you agree with my perspective on it. Ask yourself questions like, now that a major source of Canonical's income is from Microsoft (they chose to make Bing the default search and thus are receiving money from MS for that choice), how might that financial partnership with Microsoft be affecting their decisions? Why might they consider that before they consider what is beneficial for you the user? Who's paying their bills, and their devs? I think such questions can provide very enlightening explanations for behavior.

[dibl]

Very interesting, informative discussion. I'm not a close follower of the "inside the desktop" issues, so it's great to see such informed presentations of the different issues and viewpoints, concerning the Gnome direction and the KDE direction.

From a far longer-distance perspective (i.e. a less well-informed one, admittedly), it looks to me like the Linux DE developers are observing a dramatic increase in the adoption of Linux desktops by the less technically proficient masses, over the past few years, and now smell an opportunity to lure in even more users from the MS base. If you believe that much, then these decisions to load up the DEs with "services" that will broaden the acceptability to novice Linux users is, IMHO, pretty understandable. Doesn't make the penalty to performance any more desirable, of course.

That's my two cents' worth on it, overpriced as it may be. :)

[toad]

Good take, dibl. But IG does have a point. Although I must say, KDE's pim information was all over the fu!#@ng place and a complete nightmare to back up. Akonadi is supposed to make at least that aspect a doddle - as it is supposed to with group clients, but that is still some way off.

I'll be watching the developments with interest myself for all the reasons mentioned.

IG - I should really bring this up in the arch thread (and will once I get off my backside), but have you found a tiling manager for openbox yet? Also, I take it you have heard of the archbang project? They have a bunch of sane defaults...

[IgnorantGuru]

From a far longer-distance perspective (i.e. a less well-informed one, admittedly), it looks to me like the Linux DE developers are observing a dramatic increase in the adoption of Linux desktops by the less technically proficient masses, over the past few years, and now smell an opportunity to lure in even more users from the MS base. If you believe that much, then these decisions to load up the DEs with "services" that will broaden the acceptability to novice Linux users is, IMHO, pretty understandable. Doesn't make the penalty to performance any more desirable, of course.

I think you're hitting the core there dibl. Also, the 'services' you speak of are also used for other purposes - backdoors, etc. Adobe products are a good example - to me they are trojans. I think they are designed by someone to be that. Having seen the patterns of security 'problems' and lack of fixes it's hard for me to come to any other conclusion. As most of us know, Windows is loaded with backdoors by design. I'm still amazed at the security experts who are confused as to why MS doesn't fix known security flaws for so long. Obviously because their 'clients' are still using them! And it stands to reason as Linux is more widely adopted that there will be pressure to create similar 'issues'. I think KDE has been hijacked for this purpose. That to me explains the great emphasis on searching and indexing everyone's files with these questionable 'services', and its spraying of user data all over the system. I'm amazed how little cleaning is required with non-KDE apps. All the KDE apps seem to be trackers! Like Windows, to me its becoming a Big Brother OS, and that necessarily translates into poor security and poor performance (see Windows for an example). And besides backdoors and eavesdropping, you also have the RIAA, DRM, and media-control folks with agendas in Linux now as well. So it's money, power, and control issues, just like everything else in our world.

I'm also not fond of the whole DE approach in Linux, especially when the DE designers start to create an exclusive system of their own. It's one thing if it's a collection of apps that people can remove or add to their liking, like LXDE. KDE is becoming a version of Linux that is following the Microsoft model of creating an exclusive OS. I think it is a bad precedent for Linux, which has always been modular. That model is being deliberately attacked by the KDE4 approach in my view.

Fact is, you don't need a Linux 'desktop'. You can just use X, a window manager, and whatever apps and services you want. A DE is a collection of components that someone else has chosen for you. When they take it so far that you can't remove some of those components without losing most of your apps, something is wrong.

[IgnorantGuru]

IG - I should really bring this up in the arch thread (and will once I get off my backside), but have you found a tiling manager for openbox yet? Also, I take it you have heard of the archbang project? They have a bunch of sane defaults...


I tried Awesome briefly, but I didn't really 'get it' - not that that has to do with Openbox. So in a word, no. I'm pretty happy with OB as it is, but I may give some other approaches a try. One thing that migrating from KDE has shown me - there are all kinds of cool apps, WMs, and other gizmos out there!

Haven't heard about archbang - I'll have a look. I'm still playing catchup after all these system changes. And this morning my PCManFM mod is not showing the Open With... right-click submenu, even after a reboot. So I'm not sure when that broke or why but I want to look at it. I could have sworn it was working yesterday. :)

[kubicle]

@Kubicle
soprano, akonadi, nepomuk, phonon, strigi, virtuoso - these are not just libraries. They are servers which KDE wants running on my system, and goes to great lengths to keep running regardless of what a user may prefer.

Some of these libraries have daemons associated with them to access the functionality (phonon is just a multimedia layer though), most of the daemons (like strigi and virtuoso) can be disabled (and even uninstalled) if the functionality they provide is not desired. I have no need for strigi myself (and don't have the daemon installed).



Many of these have poor security histories, and they can consume huge amounts of RAM and CPU, drastically changing the performance of the system. I consider them a collection of de facto viruses and trojans, frankly. IMO these inclusions and others are very questionable - I don't believe they are aimed at serving the user or making the KDE experience better.

I'm not going to start arguing with you. As I said in the beginning, you're entitled to your opinion...even if I don't agree with you. But I do find it objectionable to pull things out of a hat and portraying them as facts (like "Many of these have poor security histories")... that's what conspiracy theorists do.

To conclude, I'm glad you've gotten a system you like to work with. As have I, I can assure that KDE let's me run my system like I want to run it, without forcing me to do anything I don't want to do.

[IgnorantGuru]

But I do find it objectionable to pull things out of a hat and portraying them as facts (like "Many of these have poor security histories")... that's what conspiracy theorists do.

Well this is why I said I'm not trying to prove anything. But if you're interested, you can read up on them yourself and see what is in their history regarding security, and what installing them may introduce even in their current versions. Phonon/pulseaudio is a good example to start with - they're not as innocuous as you might think. I admit I was just providing a heads-up, not a full-blown analysis. I certainly didn't like what I read when I researched them. Not one bit. But don't ask me for references - I didn't take notes aside from mental ones. Draw your own conclusions - I'm not asking you to take mine as fact.

Here's a little history for you
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/USN-804-1

"A local attacker could exploit this to gain root privileges. "

Gee, reminds me of Adobe's daily "could execute arbitrary code" bugs. No, I'm not saying one bug is conclusive, but it's not just that one.

Speaking of bugs (though not a security one)...

And this morning my PCManFM mod is not showing the Open With... right-click submenu, even after a reboot.

Turns out I left in a diagnostic return that caused the function to exit before creating the menu. Doh! I've corrected it (http://igurublog.wordpress.com/downloads/mod-pcmanfm/).

[IgnorantGuru]

Some of these libraries have daemons associated with them to access the functionality (phonon is just a multimedia layer though), most of the daemons (like strigi and virtuoso) can be disabled (and even uninstalled) if the functionality they provide is not desired. I have no need for strigi myself (and don't have the daemon installed).

Also - doesn't matter - nepomuk is still indexing - reading all your files and consuming your RAM and CPU. Strigi is just a front-end. When I upgraded kdelibs to 4.4 on Arch, nepomuk started indexing my entire system. I couldn't stop it short of deleting its executable. And I didn't even have Strigi installed!

[GreyGeek]

I certainly agree with what Dibl wrote and I, too, appreciate your contributions to this forum. After all, Linux IS about choice, for what ever reason. I am thankful to all the FOSS contributors, ESPECIALLY those who work tirelessly, and sometimes despite discouragement and personal attacks, on distros like Kubuntu or Arch. That sentiment goes also for KDE, GNOME and all the other DEs. There is a place for ALL of them, and ALL of them should be encouraged.


Archers tends to be bold and thus get themselves in deeper trouble.

That was my observation. Many of the problems seemed to arise from technical mis-manipulations, which required more than common technical knowledge (a Dible or Snowhog or Rog131 type knowledge), which led me to consider Arch a distro for more technically talented people. One which I would have probably enjoyed 10 years ago (I am not being derogatory). In fact, my first impression was that I had re-entered the world of Red Hat 5.0, compiling kernels, sound drivers, video drivers, manually modifying config files, and LOTS of experimentation to get it all to work together. Working with Red Hat 5.0 was a LOT of fun and taught me a lot about the basic Linux command structure and architecture.

However, RH 5.0 wasn't conducive to persuading others to adopt Linux. In fact, it was counter productive. Only other geeks like myself were interested. SuSE 5.3 began to change all of that with its YAST, and later the graphical YAST2 system administration toolset, running KDE 1.0 as the DE. Non-technical people could, and where I worked DID, run SuSE/KDE1.0 as easily as they ran Win95. That was important. I spent 35 of my 40 years programming on a Windows environment using proprietary tools. I believe that even proprietary tools have a place in the Linux environment, as long as their use is a personal choice and not something stealthy inserted by deception, like .NET (MONO), or jammed down users throats by greedy corporations devoid of ethics. During that time in the Windows environment I had to coach hundreds of people with NO computer background in the use of Windows, as easy as that DE is to use. Some, even after 15 years of using Windows, still cannot distinguish between the OS, the desktop, Windows Exporer or Internet Explorer. They see no relationship of functions common to many applications (such as File --> Quit being a menu option on every application they run, etc...) When trained to do a task they have to have a set of steps pasted on their cube wall in easy view so they can follow all the steps necessary to start an application and enter it's edit mode so they can do their data entry or editing. When they eat and drink at their desk their environment becomes filthy, their keyboard and mouse become clogged with grease, chocolate, dried sugar water, salt and sugar scum, and all the bacteria and mold that environment encourages. Their mouse or keyboard begins malfunctioning. They see no relationship between that malfunction and the dirt on their equipment. They tell their supervisor that "the program is malfunctioning again". I learned very quickly that when you get a problem like that the first step is to call the supervisor over and explain why "the program" malfunctioned. You do NOT merely clean off or replace their equipment and leave the impression that the problem was your code. In many cases Kubuntu distro and KDE developers are impugned in the same way. Users fail to check BOTH the downloaded ISO and the burned CD before they attempt to install it. They fail to check, or ask others, about the compatibility of their hardware with Linux. They fail to check the reliability of their RAM, their CDROM, their FIRMWARE, etc. In other words, they run with a "dirty" machine. When things don't work it's the fault of the distro or the DE. That's why, on this forum, the number one solution is probably checking the hardware, the ISO and the burn. On the Arch forum the problems are much deeper and technically oriented.

IF Linux users want Linux to succeed with the masses of computer illiterates the Linux DE has to be even MORE functional and powerful than the most commonly used Windows DE. That's what KDE4 is, and that is why I like it. I enjoyed Arch-type distros 10 years ago, but now my goal is to get as many Windows users converted to Linux as I can. While GNOME is an excellent desktop it is too different from how Windows behaves, which steepens the learning curve and raises the barrier to adoption for most Windows users. That is not to say that KDE4 is copying Windows ... actually, it has been shown that the opposite is the case. That's how poweful KDE4 has become. KDE4 give the Windows immigrant an opportunity to slide into Linux by keeping the learning barrier as low as possible. That's another reason why I like it. And, as an experienced user, it has DE power and applications that makes my tasks drop dead easy. I just loaded SAGE last night. I can use the "notebook()" function to fire up a browser interface on the localhost:8000 port, or I can use Cantor, the KDE4 front end to SAGE. Cantor, IMO, is much better. KDEnive, K3b, krecordmydesktop, Kmail and a HOST of other Qt4 based applications make KDE the DE of choice for those who don't want to leap the technical barriers.

Yesterday, my most dependent Linux user, who lives 1,500 miles away, called me to say he had a problem with the browser ... he could see only part of my home page, which he uses as a base. I asked him to start Skype (rather, I talked him through how to start it), and then how to show his entire screen. Sure enough, FireFox was showing only half my home page. "Move your mouse to the upper right corner of FireFox", I asked. "No, that's the cashew of the desktop. We want the upper right corner of the FireFox windows. See that middle round button, with the 'top hat' on it? Click it with the left mouse button ..... no, not that button, the middle button .... no, not that button -- we don't want to close FF, the middle button... yes, that's the one. click it"

FireFox jumped to full screen and he was a happy camper again. I had set him up with Jaunty. I noticed a gear in the system tray. It was a notification for a full system upgrade to Karmic. I told him to click on that upgrade link and do the upgrade. I watched as it began. By now it was approaching midnight and I told him to let it run over night. The next morning we connected with Skype again and I saw that the installation had stopped early in the process to ask a question. We answered the question and the upgrade continued. I hooked up again two hours later and saw his screen had no upgrade dialog and no gear in system tray. Just an orange box. Obviously he had not rebooted. "I don't see anything different" he said. "That's because you haven't rebooted as you were requested before you closed the upgrade dialog." "Oh.". He rebooted and up came KDE 4.3.5. Using Skype to watch his entire screen I easily guided him through installing widgets, wallpapers, slide shows, icons in the panel, and system tray, etc... In short order he was running the second most powerful desktop on the planet. Essential no problems were encountered. In a couple months I will guide him through the upgrade to the most powerful desktop on the planet, KDE 4.4. ;D

[kubicle]

Some of these libraries have daemons associated with them to access the functionality (phonon is just a multimedia layer though), most of the daemons (like strigi and virtuoso) can be disabled (and even uninstalled) if the functionality they provide is not desired. I have no need for strigi myself (and don't have the daemon installed).

Also - doesn't matter - nepomuk is still indexing - reading all your files and consuming your RAM and CPU.

No, it's not. Indexing can easily be disabled via systemsettings...in addition, only the first indexing (database creation) is really resource intensive (similar to the creation of 'locate' database).


Draw your own conclusions - I'm not asking you to take mine as fact.
That is of course the best anyone can do



Here's a little history for you
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/USN-804-1

"A local attacker could exploit this to gain root privileges. "

Pulseaudio has nothing to do with KDE (or phonon), and to my knowledge is not even installed on kubuntu by default. In defense of pulseaudio (which I don't use), I've rarely come across any software that didn't ever have bugs that had minor security implications. I say minor because *local* exploits are not vulnerabilities that normal users should be overly concerned about. A local attacker can always gain root privileges on a system, even without any exploits.

[IgnorantGuru]

I certainly agree with what Dibl wrote and I, too, appreciate your contributions to this forum. After all, Linux IS about choice, for what ever reason. I am thankful to all the FOSS contributors, ESPECIALLY those who work tirelessly, and sometimes despite discouragement and personal attacks, on distros like Kubuntu or Arch. That sentiment goes also for KDE, GNOME and all the other DEs. There is a place for ALL of them, and ALL of them should be encouraged.

And I'll add that goes for people like yourself who contribute so much effort to helping people on the forums!




Archers tends to be bold and thus get themselves in deeper trouble.

That was my observation. Many of the problems seemed to arise from technical mis-manipulations, which required more than common technical knowledge (a Dible or Snowhog or Rog131 type knowledge), which led me to consider Arch a distro for more technically talented people.

It's enjoyed by such people. But if you just install the packages and don't monkey around unnecessarily, it's quite stable. The packagers do a good job. You do need to get a little under the hood now and then because software updates will sometimes require config file or other changes, perhaps in how they interact with other software. But truthfully I had to do this with Ubuntu too now and then.

Re dirty mouse balls... I was SO happy when they invented optical mice! :) Today's kids can't appreciate what this means.


SuSE 5.3 began to change all of that with its YAST, and later the graphical YAST2 system administration toolset

I tried Linux severals times and always decided it was too much of a pain! I didn't want to work that hard. Finally I tried SUSE and it was acceptable. YAST was terrible compared to apt-get, but at least it was a start. Of course when SUSE shook hands with Microsoft, that's when I moved to Kubuntu.

I know what you mean about UI standardization, but frankly KDE is almost as much of a nightmare for new users. What new users need is a simple clean interface without a lot of bells and whistles, sort of like the early netbooks. Click here for web. Click here for email. People get confused when there are too many things on the screen at once. So I don't agree that KDE is great for that purpose. It may be easier for people who are trained on Windows, but that's not saying much!

Rather than trying to keep ex-Windows users happy, I would have liked to see KDE do some really innovative yet simple things with version 4. Instead they just went for the Windows clone. All I can say is Yuck.

I've actually been enjoying getting further away from UI standardization and trying apps and WMs that do things truly differently. It's fun to experience a bit of creative variation. I find that lacking in KDE, no matter how good for corporate manhours it may be. And that's why I like Arch too - it is a customizer's dream. Gets along well with lots of different software without modding it, as opposed to the Ubuntu approach of modding things to make it 'Ubuntu-compliant'. I like to see how the original authors intended their software to work. And modding things often introduces bugs.


I had set him up with Jaunty. I noticed a gear in the system tray. It was a notification for a full system upgrade to Karmic. I told him to click on that upgrade link and do the upgrade.

You ARE a brave soul. I wouldn't touch an Ubuntu upgrade without doing a partition backup first after the experiences I've had. You could just as easily have been flying out there to help him convert his doorstop back into a computer.

But I will say that to an extent Ubuntu does streamline things. I think they are getting off their strengths though, and are getting over-complicated, with lots of breakages. Suddenly changing to upstart in the middle of the Karmic beta process is an example of how they're trying to be both stable and daring, and just making a mess in the process. Even for newbies there are probably better distros out there now - maybe puppy. I really haven't looked so I don't know, but I don't trust Ubuntu to be as non-breaking with updates as it used to be. Its still less breaking than Arch - but that's because it holds versions back while Arch is always bleeding edge latest releases of everything.

I think a person like yourself would definitely appreciate Arch - it's not the manual days of Linux. It's actually quite slick. You should try out their KDE (or kdemod) implementation and see how it compares. Give us a report. :)

[IgnorantGuru]

Pulseaudio has nothing to do with KDE (or phonon), and to my knowledge is not even installed on kubuntu by default.

Pulseaudio has more to do with Ubuntu's (disasterous) choices than KDE. It's certainly installed - I know because I spent hours trying to remove it from Kubuntu Karmic.

As someone here said...
'That "Seriously...." means that it will be impossible to remove PulseAudio from any sort of Ubuntu in the near future. They are seriously building a kind of Berlin Wall to prevent a massive escape from PulseAudio. It is a trap, my friends.'
http://www.ubuntumini.com/2009/09/fix-most-audio-problems-remove.html

[kubicle]

Pulseaudio has nothing to do with KDE (or phonon), and to my knowledge is not even installed on kubuntu by default.

Pulseaudio has more to do with Ubuntu's (disasterous) choices than KDE. It's certainly installed - I know because I spent hours trying to remove it from Kubuntu Karmic.

As someone here said...
'That "Seriously...." means that it will be impossible to remove PulseAudio from any sort of Ubuntu in the near future. They are seriously building a kind of Berlin Wall to prevent a massive escape from PulseAudio. It is a trap, my friends.'
http://www.ubuntumini.com/2009/09/fix-most-audio-problems-remove.html

Well, pulseaudio is not installed by default on kubuntu lucid (10.04). But now that you mentioned it, I seem to recall there was something in karmic that pulled in pulseaudio by default...can't remember if that happened only on fresh installs or upgrades, or both.

[IgnorantGuru]

Well, pulseaudio is not installed by default on kubuntu lucid (10.04). But now that you mentioned it, I seem to recall there was something in karmic that pulled in pulseaudio by default...can't remember if that happened only on fresh installs or upgrades, or both.

That's encouraging - I'm starting to fall out of date with what's going on in (K)Ubuntu so I probably shouldn't talk about it. I'll probably never try Lucid. I'm going to leave the Kubuntu machine I maintain on Karmic until the security updates run out or I decide to put Arch on it. I don't invest a lot of time in that machine.

I find it hard to believe they removed pulse - they seemed so determined to ram it down everyone's throats. If so, that's good news for K/Ubuntu users.

[IgnorantGuru]

Anyway thanks to everyone for discussing this in an open-minded way. I know it's not easy to discuss criticism of your current distro/desktop, especially when you're not itching for change. On most forums this would have degraded to flame war long ago. :) That's an example of why I think highly of this forum and its members.

[Telengard]

Rather than trying to keep ex-Windows users happy, I would have liked to see KDE do some really innovative yet simple things with version 4. Instead they just went for the Windows clone. All I can say is Yuck.


I'm sorry Iguru, but I could not disagree more. I don't understand where you get the idea that KDE4 is cloned from Windows. In fact it seems to me that exactly the opposite happened.

And as for innovation I think maybe you are missing something. KDE4 has created an entirely new way to use the desktop, and I think it is the most sensible evolution possible. Instead of having a desktop cluttered with objects (icons in Windows) we have customizable containers which provide a logically organized view of objects and functions. Furthermore, the way KDE4 uses transparency actually adds to the functionality of the desktop instead of just making it prettier to look at.

IMHO KDE hasn't gotten bloated, and if anything it has gotten more functional than ever. IMHO KDE is leading the evolution of the desktop paradigm, not following Windows or Apple or anyone else. Yes all the added power and functionality comes with some frilly things of dubious value, but you will always have some unnecessary or unneeded options when you choose such a featureful desktop.

Yes KDE4 requires significantly more horsepower than KDE3, but that is natural and to be expected. Even the most experienced Linux desktop users want the desktop to grow and become more functional, not less. The whole idea of programming is to create software which relieves as much of the workload as possible from the user. Computing power increases in new machines all the time to compensate for the higher demands anyway.

I am proud to belong to a community which includes individuals such as yourself who are bold enough to ask these questions. I just think that your condemnation of KDE is a little too harsh, and frankly I don't think it is completely justified.

[GreyGeek]

...
Re dirty mouse balls... I was SO happy when they invented optical mice! :) Today's kids can't appreciate what this means.


Optical mice were coming in at work as I retired. Peanut, cookie and candy crumbs seemed by magic to work their way under the mouse buttons, hindering or even preventing their clicking. ::)



I tried Linux severals times and always decided it was too much of a pain! I didn't want to work that hard. Finally I tried SUSE and it was acceptable. YAST was terrible compared to apt-get, but at least it was a start. Of course when SUSE shook hands with Microsoft, that's when I moved to Kubuntu.


The problems working with RPM packaging in RH were greatly alleviated by YAST and the SuSE repositories, but dependency hell was a frequent problem on RH and when installing alien RPMs on SuSE or other RPM based distros.



I've actually been enjoying getting further away from UI standardization and trying apps and WMs that do things truly differently. It's fun to experience a bit of creative variation. ...


Yesterday, with the fellow living 1,500 miles away, when KDE 4.3.5 came up Skype couldn't turn on the webcam, even though sound worked great. I had him open a konsole and use apt-get to install Cheese. It seems that Cheese contains some libraries that other video apps lack, and after he opened up Cheese his webcam light came on and he saw himself on the screen. He restarted Skype and I saw his face on my screen! Then I asked him to close cheese, which he had left open. I said, "File --> Quit, remember?" At that instant I noticed that instead of "File" for a menu option the author of Cheese changed it to "Cheese". I hold that deviation from UI standardization in such basic fundamentals as how a window or dialog should be closed should ALWAYS be honored by a programmer.



I had set him up with Jaunty. I noticed a gear in the system tray. It was a notification for a full system upgrade to Karmic. I told him to click on that upgrade link and do the upgrade.

You ARE a brave soul. I wouldn't touch an Ubuntu upgrade without doing a partition backup first after the experiences I've had. You could just as easily have been flying out there to help him convert his doorstop back into a computer.


I'm not that bold! :o As an old, but not bold, pilot I would have loved to had the excuse to fly out there to help him. 8) BUT, before I guided him in his installation of Jaunty, I made sure than his hardware was compatible with Kubuntu, and that the CDROM I sent him was valid. After he booted it, but before he ran the LiveCD mode, I had him run the CD test to make sure it hadn't been damaged in the mail. This was before Skype 2.1 beta with "Show my full screen", so talking him through the installation was excruciating. It took ten hours on the install alone. After Skype 2.1 was installed the customization took only a couple hours.




But I will say that to an extent Ubuntu does streamline things. I think they are getting off their strengths though, and are getting over-complicated, with lots of breakages. Suddenly changing to upstart in the middle of the Karmic beta process is an example of how they're trying to be both stable and daring, and just making a mess in the process.


I haven't done any more with Ubuntu than a curious glance, so I can't say anything specific about it, except that I prefer KDE4 to GNOME. But, Kubuntu IS advertised as a bleeding edge KDE distro and folks who expect it NOT to break on occasions are forgetting that. I prefer the (b)leading edge because, in my experience, Kubuntu Jaunty, Karmic, and now Lucid, are very stable, and in Lucid the plasmas applets that do crash automatically restart themselves transparently.



Even for newbies there are probably better distros out there now - maybe puppy.


I used Puppy (4.2 IIRC) to install Linux on an 8 year old box with 256MB of RAM and a small HD. Ran like Lightening. Stable too. Not much with mime connectivity. Sort of like GNOME. IF you wanted a link to run something you had to choose it. Very time wasting and inconvenient.



I think a person like yourself would definitely appreciate Arch - it's not the manual days of Linux. It's actually quite slick. You should try out their KDE (or kdemod) implementation and see how it compares. Give us a report. :)


Now that I have Lucid set up as the bootable OS on this notebook, and I have install VirutalBox-ose, I can add Arch next to WinXP as a guest OS. ;D

BTW, saying goodbye to KDE doesn't mean you have to say goodbye to this forum! ;)