Kubuntu 7.04 beta/GRUB 1.5 install problem (boot problem because of hard drive)

[jck]

Recently, I purchased a Dell Inspiron 1501 laptop that has Windows Vista Home Premium, and I purchased an Elements 250 GB External USB drive on which I wanted to install Linux.

I tried installing both the 32 and 64 bit versions of Kubuntu 7.04 Beta.

The installs found and recognized and let me setup the external USB drive with the partitions I wanted.

However when I went to install, the installers started complaining about a partition not having the proper sectors, blocks, etc. I believe this is the FAT16/EISA partition that comes by default on the boot drive in the laptop.

After I answered that I didn't care about the errors that it was detecting with the partition and continued, Kubuntu installed successfully and GRUB seemingly installed to the MBR of hd0.

Upon reboot when the system would try to start, I received a "GRUB Error 21" and the boot process stops.

Does anyone know if this is an issue with the new Vista boot process and GRUB not being able to handle the new boot process?

I would appreciate any help that anyone can provide. I would like to have the ability to have Linux on the USB drive so that I can move it between machines.

Thanks in advance.

jck

[penguin.ch]

GRUB Error 21


Right from the boot loader's stack (aka GRUB manual (http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#Stage2-errors)):

"This error is returned if the device part of a device or full file name refers to a disk or BIOS device that is not present or not recognized by the BIOS in the system."

Which is why I would rather suspect your laptop's BIOS of being unable to boot from an USB disk (by default that is).

[mitchhobbs]

Hi jck,

I've installed to a few USB drives and they can be tricky. I opted to have the grub installed directly to the USB drive and not to the MBR of my internal drive. I didn't want to mess with that. While installing, on the last step down at the bottom (the last page in the install setup process before it actually installs) there is an "advanced" button. Click that and you can decide where grub is to be installed. In order to boot from the drive I have to twik my bios setting. On my laptop, HP pavilion dv4308wm, I hit f10 during bootup. move over to advanced and then select harddrive. I find my usb listed there, move it up in the order. Hit f10 to save the settings and then reboot. Then it reboots to the usb drive. Now that you have grub installed to the MBR of the internal drive you might have problems. I've used "supergrub" in the past as I have messed up the MBR of my laptop, windoz xp, and it has restored it. Primarily the reason I don't mess with the mbr anymore. As far as loading it the the USB drive and moving it between machines, I've tried that with my desktop and it freezes. I installed it while connected to the laptop and I think that once installed it is set for my laptops hardware and when I hook it up to the desktop I think it has a hardware conflict. (different monitor, graphic card, etc...) I would try to restore the MBR of the internal HD and reinstall grub to the usb drive.

[jck]

I appreciate the responses. :)



Which is why I would rather suspect your laptop's BIOS of being unable to boot from an USB disk (by default that is).


UnicornRider:

The Dell Inspiron 1501 2.1.0 BIOS, under the Boot menu, shows the USB 2.0 drive when I have it plugged into the USB. I would have assumed that would mean it can boot from it, if it has the bootloader in the boot sector of the drive.

Of course, I'm not a BIOS expert so I can't be sure of anything about how they work :(



Hi jck,

I've installed to a few USB drives and they can be tricky. I opted to have the grub installed directly to the USB drive and not to the MBR of my internal drive. I didn't want to mess with that. While installing, on the last step down at the bottom (the last page in the install setup process before it actually installs) there is an "advanced" button. Click that and you can decide where grub is to be installed. In order to boot from the drive I have to twik my bios setting. On my laptop, HP pavilion dv4308wm, I hit f10 during bootup. move over to advanced and then select harddrive. I find my usb listed there, move it up in the order. Hit f10 to save the settings and then reboot. Then it reboots to the usb drive. Now that you have grub installed to the MBR of the internal drive you might have problems. I've used "supergrub" in the past as I have messed up the MBR of my laptop, windoz xp, and it has restored it. Primarily the reason I don't mess with the mbr anymore. As far as loading it the the USB drive and moving it between machines, I've tried that with my desktop and it freezes. I installed it while connected to the laptop and I think that once installed it is set for my laptops hardware and when I hook it up to the desktop I think it has a hardware conflict. (different monitor, graphic card, etc...) I would try to restore the MBR of the internal HD and reinstall grub to the usb drive.


Mitch:

I've tried loading the drive with GRUB to the MBR. The one thing I can think that I did not try was to change the boot order of the drives in the BIOS.

I will go and re-load Kubuntu 7.04 beta x64 into the USB drive and have GRUB load the MBR on the USB drive, then reboot and go into the BIOS and move the USB drive up in the list.

Hopefully, that will solve my problem and let me use the disk.

Thanks again to both of you. I will let you know whether or not the Dell BIOS allows this.

jck

[penguin.ch]

Please post the "automagic kernel" section of /boot/grub/menu.lst as well as /boot/grub/device.map (as a whole).

[jck]

Please post the "automagic kernel" section of /boot/grub/menu.lst as well as /boot/grub/device.map (as a whole).


here is the automagic section...
I included the bottom section past the end that has the "chainloader +1" item

and device.map ...

Vista won't keep me logged on this site...I had to email myself the stuff and get on my other laptop...sorry it took so long



### BEGIN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST
## lines between the AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST markers will be modified
## by the debian update-grub script except for the default options
below

## DO NOT UNCOMMENT THEM, Just edit them to your needs

## ## Start Default Options ##
## default kernel options
## default kernel options for automagic boot options
## If you want special options for specific kernels use kopt_x_y_z
## where x.y.z is kernel version. Minor versions can be omitted.
## e.g. kopt=root=/dev/hda1 ro
## kopt_2_6_8=root=/dev/hdc1 ro
## kopt_2_6_8_2_686=root=/dev/hdc2 ro
# kopt=root=UUID=34ee736e-5b51-4ef0-a892-9a66fe7f91f2 ro

## default grub root device
## e.g. groot=(hd0,0)
# groot=(hd1,0)

## should update-grub create alternative automagic boot options
## e.g. alternative=true
## alternative=false
# alternative=true

## should update-grub lock alternative automagic boot options
## e.g. lockalternative=true
## lockalternative=false
# lockalternative=false

## additional options to use with the default boot option, but not with
the
## alternatives
## e.g. defoptions=vga=791 resume=/dev/hda5
# defoptions=quiet splash

## should update-grub lock old automagic boot options
## e.g. lockold=false
## lockold=true
# lockold=false

## Xen hypervisor options to use with the default Xen boot option
# xenhopt=

## Xen Linux kernel options to use with the default Xen boot option
# xenkopt=console=tty0

## altoption boot targets option
## multiple altoptions lines are allowed
## e.g. altoptions=(extra menu suffix) extra boot options
## altoptions=(recovery) single
# altoptions=(recovery mode) single

## controls how many kernels should be put into the menu.lst
## only counts the first occurence of a kernel, not the
## alternative kernel options
## e.g. howmany=all
## howmany=7
# howmany=all

## should update-grub create memtest86 boot option
## e.g. memtest86=true
## memtest86=false
# memtest86=true

## should update-grub adjust the value of the default booted system
## can be true or false
# updatedefaultentry=false

## ## End Default Options ##

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.20-12-generic
root (hd1,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.20-12-generic
root=UUID=34ee736e-5b51-4ef0-a892-9a66fe7f91f2 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.20-12-generic
quiet
savedefault

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.20-12-generic (recovery mode)
root (hd1,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.20-12-generic
root=UUID=34ee736e-5b51-4ef0-a892-9a66fe7f91f2 ro single
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.20-12-generic

title Ubuntu, memtest86+
root (hd1,0)
kernel /boot/memtest86+.bin
quiet

### END DEBIAN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST

# This is a divider, added to separate the menu items below from the
Debian
# ones.
title Other operating systems:
root


# This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a
non-linux OS
# on /dev/sda3
title Windows Vista/Longhorn (loader)
root (hd0,2)
savedefault
chainloader +1





(hd0) /dev/sda
(hd1) /dev/sdb

[penguin.ch]

Assuming that /dev/sdb1 is hosting the Linux root partition, I'd say that your setup looks good - except for this "UUID" crap which I'd eliminate as a potential source of trouble.

In other words: you may replace all three occurences of root=UUID=[blurb] by root=/dev/sdb1 - and give it another try ... but please backup the menu.lst prior to any edition - just in case I'm wrong.

[jck]

Assuming that /dev/sdb1 is hosting the Linux root partition, I'd say that your setup looks good - except for this "UUID" crap which I'd eliminate as a potential source of trouble.

In other words: you may replace all three occurences of root=UUID=[blurb] by root=/dev/sdb1 - and give it another try ... but please backup the menu.lst prior to any edition - just in case I'm wrong.


UnicornRider:

I tried as you suggested and it was unsuccessful.

I even tried removing the fixed disk from the laptop and re-installed Kubuntu 7.04 beta to the USB drive and configured the /boot/grub/menu.lst file accordingly and it would not boot.

In all cases when it goes to boot from the external USB drive, it sits with a blinking cursor for some seconds...then, it will say "Operating System Not Found".

I think perhaps it is a BIOS issue with Phoenix/Award and Dell, as the Boot menu shows it as a recognizable boot device but will not properly boot from it.

I have even tried installing the latest BIOS update from Dell, and it did nothing more than re-classify the external USB as "USB Storage Device" (BIOS 2.3.0) rather than "HDD Device" (BIOS 2.1.0 that came installed on the laptop from Dell).

I will fall back to Kubuntu 6.10 64bit...and if that fails, then try 32bit...hoping there is possibly an issue with the 7.04 Beta for some reason...and see if that helps.

If not, I am going to speak with Dell Technical Support about this issue, and see if there is a way to get-around it...or...if they know of a BIOS issue and that there is a fix in the works.

If I get no satisfaction from Dell and Kubuntu 6.10 does not work, I am going to pursue getting a 2nd tray and 2nd hard disk and load Kubuntu onto the 2nd disk and just have to swap drives.

I sincerely appreciate all your help. I will update this thread with the results from a Kubuntu 6.10 attempt so that you are aware of anything I find.

Thank you very much again. Cheers.

jck

[jck]

An update:

I didn't have Kubuntu 6.10 32 bit desktop burned, so I took a copy of the Ubuntu 6.10 32bit desktop and used it.

Unfortunately, it had the same results.

I am going to make a post to the Dell Forums and see if someone at Dell will tell me if it is possible, and/or if Dell is working with the BIOS maker to resolve any issue with booting from external USB hard disk drives.

I will let everyone know what I find.

Thanks very much again. More updates to come soon.

jck

[jck]

Another update:

I went to Western Digital's support site to dig, and I (unfortunately) found this FAQ item:


Question
Can I boot my computer system using an external (FireWire, USB, Combo) hard drive?
Answer
While it may be possible to boot your computer to an external hard drive, Western Digital does not provide technical support for booting your computer using an external hard drive. If you intend to make a copy of your boot drive, or install your operating system, please use a second internal drive (EIDE or Serial ATA), rather than an external drive

No place for a 2nd internal drive in my laptop.

Will wait to see if anyone at Dell knows if there is going to be a BIOS upgrade to make things happen right.

More updates to come as I have more information.

jck

[jck]

Well, Dell was not a lot of help. They suggested downloading a boot CD with fdisk on it and changing the boot device.

I tried doing several things with Kubuntu...none of which worked.

I have seen several people post articles about getting USB HDs to work, but I can't seem to get it to function and I have developed a headache today because I've been pounding away and going through countless forums trying to find the definitive procedure to step through an install on an external USB drive.

For some reason whenever it tries to load from the USB external HD, it just stops...and eventually says "Operating System not found". I can't even get grub to error for me.

I will do a fresh install of my Kubuntu 7.04 64-bit Desktop this week, and then post my "fdisk -l" and "mount" and see if you can give me any pointers from there.

I might have to do some mumbo jumbo with the mkinitrd or something to get the USB to initialize right...that might be the problem, but I am not familiar whatsoever with the system device initialization part of Linux and will need some help if anyone is able.

Thanks again for all your help, UnicornRider. I will get more info on here as I have time.

cheers

jck

[mitchhobbs]

Sorry jck, I've been away for awhile. When I install to a usb device I also have to "edit" the grub menu. I'll go step by step as I have done this with a number of linux distos, MEPIS, KUBUNTU, SABAYON, ELIVE, all with success. I always come back to Kubuntu....

1. During install, I install to the USB device which in my case has always been listed as sda.
2. Direct grub to be installed to the usb device, different with each distro just have to find the option during install.
3. after successful install, reboot. This is where it gets tricky.
4. Like i previously posted you have to change your bios settings. In my case I hit f10 during bootup to get into the settings screen. I move over to advanced, then to hard drive. I find that my usb device is listed there. I highlight it, hit f6 to move it up in the order, then hit f10 to save the changes and reboot. Now sometimes my usb device doesn't show up. In that case I just hit f10 to save and reboot and go though the steps again and it is usually there by then.
5. Now, after a fresh install and reboot with correct bios settings I usually get an error message. It's usually a "grub error 17" message with a blinking cursor. I then hit enter which takes me to a screen which displays the grub entrys. I hit "e" to edit. As I see from you grub list you posted it has your root as: root=hd1,0. This has to be changed to hd0,0. I know, hd0,0 is the main hard drive. Not in this case. The usb drive is the main hard drive. It's all in how grub is interpreting the setup. (my laptop harddrive contains xp and it shows up on the grub as hd0,0 but when I try and boot from it I get error messages, which doesn't bother me because I just have to disconnect the usb drive and my laptop boots normally.) After making the change from hd1,0 to hd0,0 I hit "b" for boot. It usually boots successfully then.
6. Once successfully booted, first thing to do is open the konsole and using a text editor, open the /boot/grub/menu.lst file and change the hd1,0 to hd0,0 to make it permanent.
7. Thats it. like I said, it has worked for me for a number of distros including Kubuntu 7.04

Here is what my grub looks like from an install of 6.10 to a usb device:

# Splashimage line added by kubuntu-grub-splashimages package
splashimage=(hd0,0)/boot/grub/splashimages/KUBUNTU_splashscreen_blue_neon_logo_03.xpm.gz


# menu.lst - See: grub(8), info grub, update-grub(8)
# grub-install(8), grub-floppy(8),
# grub-md5-crypt, /usr/share/doc/grub
# and /usr/share/doc/grub-doc/.

## default num
# Set the default entry to the entry number NUM. Numbering starts from 0, and
# the entry number 0 is the default if the command is not used.
#
# You can specify 'saved' instead of a number. In this case, the default entry
# is the entry saved with the command 'savedefault'.
# WARNING: If you are using dmraid do not change this entry to 'saved' or your
# array will desync and will not let you boot your system.
default 0

## timeout sec
# Set a timeout, in SEC seconds, before automatically booting the default entry
# (normally the first entry defined).
timeout 10

## hiddenmenu
# Hides the menu by default (press ESC to see the menu)
#hiddenmenu

# Pretty colours
#color cyan/blue white/blue

## password ['--md5'] passwd
# If used in the first section of a menu file, disable all interactive editing
# control (menu entry editor and command-line) and entries protected by the
# command 'lock'
# e.g. password topsecret
# password --md5 $1$gLhU0/$aW78kHK1QfV3P2b2znUoe/
# password topsecret

#
# examples
#
# title Windows 95/98/NT/2000
# root (hd0,0)
# makeactive
# chainloader +1
#
# title Linux
# root (hd0,1)
# kernel /vmlinuz root=/dev/hda2 ro
#

#
# Put static boot stanzas before and/or after AUTOMAGIC KERNEL LIST

### BEGIN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST
## lines between the AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST markers will be modified
## by the debian update-grub script except for the default options below

## DO NOT UNCOMMENT THEM, Just edit them to your needs

## ## Start Default Options ##
## default kernel options
## default kernel options for automagic boot options
## If you want special options for specific kernels use kopt_x_y_z
## where x.y.z is kernel version. Minor versions can be omitted.
## e.g. kopt=root=/dev/hda1 ro
## kopt_2_6_8=root=/dev/hdc1 ro
## kopt_2_6_8_2_686=root=/dev/hdc2 ro
# kopt=root=UUID=f4370b90-f787-4f32-805e-655894aed8ad ro
# kopt_2_6=root=/dev/sda1 ro

## default grub root device
## e.g. groot=(hd0,0)
# groot=(hd1,0)

## should update-grub create alternative automagic boot options
## e.g. alternative=true
## alternative=false
# alternative=true

## should update-grub lock alternative automagic boot options
## e.g. lockalternative=true
## lockalternative=false
# lockalternative=false

## additional options to use with the default boot option, but not with the
## alternatives
## e.g. defoptions=vga=791 resume=/dev/hda5
# defoptions=quiet splash

## should update-grub lock old automagic boot options
## e.g. lockold=false
## lockold=true
# lockold=false

## altoption boot targets option
## multiple altoptions lines are allowed
## e.g. altoptions=(extra menu suffix) extra boot options
## altoptions=(recovery) single
# altoptions=(recovery mode) single

## controls how many kernels should be put into the menu.lst
## only counts the first occurence of a kernel, not the
## alternative kernel options
## e.g. howmany=all
## howmany=7
# howmany=all

## should update-grub create memtest86 boot option
## e.g. memtest86=true
## memtest86=false
# memtest86=true

## should update-grub adjust the value of the default booted system
## can be true or false
# updatedefaultentry=false

## ## End Default Options ##

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.17-11-generic
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.17-11-generic root=/dev/sda1 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.17-11-generic
quiet
savedefault
boot

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.17-11-generic (recovery mode)
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.17-11-generic root=/dev/sda1 ro single
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.17-11-generic
boot

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.17-10-generic
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.17-10-generic root=/dev/sda1 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.17-10-generic
quiet
savedefault
boot

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.17-10-generic (recovery mode)
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.17-10-generic root=/dev/sda1 ro single
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.17-10-generic
boot

title Ubuntu, memtest86+
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/memtest86+.bin
quiet
boot

### END DEBIAN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST

# This is a divider, added to separate the menu items below from the Debian
# ones.
title Other operating systems:
root


# This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a non-linux OS
# on /dev/hda1
title Windows Vista/Longhorn (loader)
root (hd0,0)
savedefault
chainloader +1

Notice the hd0,0 for the root=
BTW, I have to change that with each new kernel upgrade because it sets it back to hd1,0

Now I see your getting a "no operating system found" message. I don't know what that is about, I've gotten that before but is usually meant that grub wasn't installed to the usb devise.

[jck]

Mitch,

Thanks again for your reply. I hope your time away was good. :)

When I install Kubuntu, I generally install this way:

1) Boot from Live CD, let desktop load and possibly detect USB device partitions, etc

2) Click Install icon

3) Click through default time and language settings

4) Click to Manually partition

5) Setup a root partition at the beginning of the drive(sdx1), then a swap (sdx2), then a FAT32 after that (sdx3) (where x = a or b, depending on if I have the internal drive in there...usually sdb cause I usually have the internal drive in the slot)

6) Set boot loader install to hdx (x= 0 or 1, if internal drive is or is not present) so that it puts grub to the external USB drive

7) reboot

My BIOS in the Dell Inspiron 1501 is always set to USB drive as first disk. I pretty much leave it there in an attempt to see something happen in case something works.

One thing I have noticed is that when I do a fdisk -l, I see that sda (the internal drive) and sdb (the USB drive) both have a partition set to "Boot". I don't know if that could be an issue with the BIOS or something.

I have tried setting the root in GRUB before, but for some reason (like right now) if I try to go from (hd 1,4) to (hd0,4), it tells me it can't find that partition. I think this is because the internal drive being present on the internal SATA controller is seen as first device of choice for recognition by the BIOS when it reports to GRUB about disks that exist on the system.

Maybe I need to take the internal disk out every time I work with installing Kubuntu on the USB drive so that my internal config will work accordingly when it tries to boot from USB?

Anyways, I will try to get my fdisk and mount and my device.map and my menu.lst on here so you guys can take a look and tell me where I'm messing up.

If u guys know how to download and use one of the tools to resolve this faster (supergrub, etc), I'd be willing to try that.

Thanks so much again. Be back with more info ASAP.

cheers

jck

[mitchhobbs]

Hey jck, forgot to mention that when I have grub installed to the usb drive I input:

/dev/sda

instead of sda, that's the way it recongnized my particular setup. My internal drive is hda and the usb is sda.

Yes, please post fdisk -l

mitch

[jck]

Mitch,

When you say that you put in /dev/sda to the grub installer...you mean, you replace the "(hd0)" that is default with "/dev/sda"? Do you put parentheses around it?

Also...about root=hd0,0

I read somewhere...about changing "root" to "groot" so that on kernel upgrades it would maintain. Don't know how valid it is, but I thought I'd mention it.

I will get fdisk to here ASAP as soon as I'm home and settled in.

Thanks so much again.

cheers

jck

[mitchhobbs]

jck, yes. When I get to the point during install and I select the advanced options I input /dev/sda just like that without parenthesis.

As far as the groot or root, I don't know. It would be nice so I wouldn't have to change it with every update. I'll have to research that.

Are you installing to the whole usb drive or making partitions to install to? I always install to the whole device and let the installer do what it may. I've done the making of partitions on my desktop with 2 internal HD's. I'm currently triple booting my desktop with Edgy, Feisty and Elive. Anyway, my laptop setup is:

HP pavilion 4308wm, with intel integrated graphics.
1 gb processor and 100 gb HD.

I use 2 different usb drives, both SIMPLETECH products. One is 60 gigs and the other is 100 gigs. I use the 100 gigs as my "stable" version which is Edgy at this point and the 60 I use to test other distros, Feisty, Mepis, Sabayon, etc... The Grub I posted is from the 100 gig drive. Anyway, I'm rambling on and on.

Did you install grub to the internal HD? Are you booting your stock operating system from it or is it booting normally? I keep xp on my laptop because I burn a lot of DVD's and with linux it's kinda coplicated. I like to be able to click a few option and then burn and I haven't found it to be that easy on linux.

I sounds to me like grub is installed to your internal hd and when you try to boot to the usb drive your getting the "no operating system found" error because there is no grub on the usb drive. If it were there you should at least get some kind of grub error.

[jck]

jck, yes. When I get to the point during install and I select the advanced options I input /dev/sda just like that without parenthesis.

Cool. I will do that in a second. I came over to see your response before I did it. Thanks for putting this here before I reloaded Kubuntu :D

BTW...about Dell BIOS... 2.3.0 for Inspiron 1501...

If you are having trouble with the Kubuntu CD loading, go to the main setup screen in the BIOS...there is a setting called "High Precision Events Timer" that is a Yes/No option...it will keep your Kubuntu 7.04 CD from booting. You have to turn it off. That might have been one issue. I will re-test the boot after this re-load.



As far as the groot or root, I don't know. It would be nice so I wouldn't have to change it with every update. I'll have to research that.

Hope it works for you. Would like to think I could actually help you out too with something.

If it does, then thank God my entire memory hasn't gone yet...haha.



Are you installing to the whole usb drive or making partitions to install to? I always install to the whole device and let the installer do what it may. I've done the making of partitions on my desktop with 2 internal HD's. I'm currently triple booting my desktop with Edgy, Feisty and Elive.

I usually manually partition. If the reboot with manual partitions without the Dell BIOS item on doesn't work, I'll try letting Kubuntu use the whole drive...then repartition later. I do want to load MEPIS on there as well.

In fact, I put a suggestion to Warren at MEPIS that he should relocate where I live...he could help convince my employer move to Linux.

I'd try to convince Kubuntu...but...well...I don't know if Kubuntu wants to move. hehe



Anyway, my laptop setup is:

HP pavilion 4308wm, with intel integrated graphics.
1 gb processor and 100 gb HD.

I use 2 different usb drives, both SIMPLETECH products. One is 60 gigs and the other is 100 gigs. I use the 100 gigs as my "stable" version which is Edgy at this point and the 60 I use to test other distros, Feisty, Mepis, Sabayon, etc... The Grub I posted is from the 100 gig drive. Anyway, I'm rambling on and on.

That's ok. My setup is:

Dell Inspiron 1501 w/1GB ram, 120GB internal drive, TSST CD/RW-DVD/RW
15" screen, wireless-g, 10/100 ethernet, 56k modem, etc etc

I've got the one Elements powered by Western Digital 250GB USB drive. Want Kubuntu and MEPIS on it. If I can get it working, I might buy another and put Fedora and/or openSUSE on it. I really want to work with Linux bad.

In fact, I want to migrate by year's end on every machine that I can.



Did you install grub to the internal HD?

No, I put it on the external USB Drive.



Are you booting your stock operating system from it or is it booting normally?


I am booting the laptop from the internal drive with the Windows bootloader for Windows Vista Home Premium which came on the laptop.

I decided to keep it because I will eventually have to know Vista and do VB.NET 2005 for it for my job.



I keep xp on my laptop because I burn a lot of DVD's and with linux it's kinda coplicated. I like to be able to click a few option and then burn and I haven't found it to be that easy on linux.


Yeah, there's a cool program I use for burning CDs in Windows XP on my gaming box...called CD Burner Pro 3 Freeware...it's simple, and awesome.



I sounds to me like grub is installed to your internal hd and when you try to boot to the usb drive your getting the "no operating system found" error because there is no grub on the usb drive. If it were there you should at least get some kind of grub error.


Well, I am going to go over and type in "/dev/sdb" into the boot loader config after I finish my writing this.

I really appreciate your holding my hand on this. I first messed with Linux back in about 1990 in college (Yggdrasil), and haven't done much since 1992. It has come a long ways and I love it...especially because it's free.

I need to also make a post to Kubuntu and find out how to send a banque cheque to them so that I can donate. I said I would when I got my main machine working fully and it is. I want to perpetuate and reward them for their hard work and contribute.

And besides. $100 to Kubuntu for the OS is far cheaper for the $300 upgrade to Vista! :D

Thanks again...will have the fdisk here soon if the boot doesn't work after this install.

jck

[jck]

Mitch,

Alright...here's how it went.

I tried to do a manual partition. It didn't boot. Same "Operating System not found" message.

So, I tried letting do the whole disk. It wouldn't boot, same message.

I rebooted and went into the live cd and edited the /boot/grub/menu.lst, and I made the root=UUID=.... change to root=/dev/sdb...and I made the root (hd1,0) change to root (hd0,0).

Question:

Now that the USB external hard drive is now seen as primary boot hard drive (hd0), won't the device.map file defining (hd0) /dev/sda make my menu.lst definition of root=/dev/sdb try to boot the wrong drive?

I'm gonna try modifying that again back to root=/dev/sda.

I'm really eager.

I couldn't get the fdisk because there's no shared Windows FAT partition to write the file to from Linux and then send in Vista via IE...so...I'll have to wait til I re-install again and configure my own partitions. But...the basic gist of the fdisk -l output after a whole disk autopartition was:

/dev/sdb1 boot Linux partition sectors 1-????
/dev/sdb2 Extended partition sectors ????-?????
/dev/sdb5 Linux Swap within the extended partition

Hope this gives you some inkling.

Let me know what you think. I'll try to get fdisk on here later tonight or tomorrow.

Again...thanks for your help

cheers

jck

[mitchhobbs]

Hey jck, it looks like your usb drive is showing up as sdb and not sda. I would change the install of grub to /dev/sdb and then change the "kernel" line in the grub menu to read root=/dev/sdb1

Here is what my first option in grub looks like as my drive shows up as sda, this is on edgy though:

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.17-11-generic
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.17-11-generic root=/dev/sda1 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.17-11-generic
quiet
savedefault
boot

Notice the root (hd0,0) and in the kernel it has root=/dev/sda1

Here it the output of fdisk-l on my system:

Disk /dev/hda: 100.0 GB, 100030242816 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 12161 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/hda1 * 1 12135 97474356 7 HPFS/NTFS
/dev/hda2 12136 12161 208845 88 Linux plaintext

Disk /dev/sda: 100.0 GB, 100030242816 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 12161 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sda1 * 1 11787 94679046 83 Linux
/dev/sda2 11788 12161 3004155 5 Extended
/dev/sda5 11788 12161 3004123+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris

see how /dev/sda1 is the boot root directory with a *

I also seem to remember that one of the updates to feisty had changed the way other peoples HD's were listed to where hda was now sda and sda was now sdb. You internal drive may be showing up as sda and your external showing up as sdb. The fdisk I show above is on my edgy disk. I don't have feisty up and running on a disk but I do have a copy of the menu.lst that I had saved:

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.20-9-generic
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.20-9-generic root=UUID=2d35425d-8429-46be-a31a-b0a3f2e79392 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.20-9-generic
quiet
savedefault

I don't know what the root=UUID is all about but I do remember that this worked with the usb drive I had it installed on. You might want to leave that section alone and try it as it is installed. Still change it to (hd0.0) though.

Hope this helps....

[jck]

Hey jck, it looks like your usb drive is showing up as sdb and not sda. I would change the install of grub to /dev/sdb and then change the "kernel" line in the grub menu to read root=/dev/sdb1

When I set it up, I did it as /dev/sdb...however, I can't remember what I made root to be in menu.lst. I'll make sure that it is set to /dev/sdb1.



Here is what my first option in grub looks like as my drive shows up as sda, this is on edgy though:

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.17-11-generic
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.17-11-generic root=/dev/sda1 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.17-11-generic
quiet
savedefault
boot

Notice the root (hd0,0) and in the kernel it has root=/dev/sda1

That's close to what mine looks like as well. I will double-check when I get home from the office.



Here it the output of fdisk-l on my system:

Disk /dev/hda: 100.0 GB, 100030242816 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 12161 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/hda1 * 1 12135 97474356 7 HPFS/NTFS
/dev/hda2 12136 12161 208845 88 Linux plaintext

Disk /dev/sda: 100.0 GB, 100030242816 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 12161 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sda1 * 1 11787 94679046 83 Linux
/dev/sda2 11788 12161 3004155 5 Extended
/dev/sda5 11788 12161 3004123+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris

see how /dev/sda1 is the boot root directory with a *

I also seem to remember that one of the updates to feisty had changed the way other peoples HD's were listed to where hda was now sda and sda was now sdb. You internal drive may be showing up as sda and your external showing up as sdb.

Yeah, Fiesty shows my internal SATA 150 drive as sda, and my external USB disk as sdb.




The fdisk I show above is on my edgy disk. I don't have feisty up and running on a disk but I do have a copy of the menu.lst that I had saved:

title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.20-9-generic
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.20-9-generic root=UUID=2d35425d-8429-46be-a31a-b0a3f2e79392 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.20-9-generic
quiet
savedefault

I don't know what the root=UUID is all about but I do remember that this worked with the usb drive I had it installed on. You might want to leave that section alone and try it as it is installed. Still change it to (hd0.0) though.

Hope this helps....


thanks. I'll double check things this evening. I really hope I can get it up and running this weekend. I'd hate to have to rely on VMWare on Windows.

Will let you know as soon as I get home and make the changes.

Thank you very much once again.

cheers
jck

[jck]

Alright, I've come home...and I'm re-installing the Kubuntu 7.04 x86_64 Desktop install.

Doing the partitioning, I did:

1) Entire disk of the USB External drive
2) grub told to load to /dev/sdb

It is installing now...partitions made by the installer are:

partition #1 of SCSI5 (0,0,0) (sdb) as ext3
partition #5 of SCSI5 (0,0,0) (sdb) as swap

After I finished the install, I did a restart of the system with the CD removed to see what would happen.

"Operating System not found"

So, I tried loading the Live x86_64 CD...and...it froze...so...I went into the BIOS to check my settings...they had al remained the same.

So, I put in the i386 Live CD in to boot into desktop to edit files. It succeed in booting to the desktop.

So, I first go into /media/disk/boot/grub/device.map and it is as such:

(hd0) /dev/sda
(hd1) /dev/sdb

Now, I go to /media/disk/boot/grub/menu.lst and my Kubuntu boot is such at the end of menu.lst (typing this into here, since I have no FAT partition):


title Ubuntu, kernel 2.6.20-12-generic
root (hd1,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.20-12-generic root=UUID=... ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.20-12-generic
quiet
savedefault

I made the UUID= followed by ... to save typing.

So, I will change the hd1,0 to hd0,0 and leave the UUIDs alone.

Then I check fdisk -l, and it has this:

Disk /dev/sdb: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes
255 heads, 633 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdb1 * 1 30074 241569373+ 83 Linux
/dev/sdb2 30075 30401 2626627+ 5 Extended
/dev/sdb5 30075 30401 2626596 82 Linux swap/Solaris


So...I know it's sdb...partition 1 is set to boot...my menu.lst is set to use (hd0,0) which is what the external should be set to when I use it as the boot drive in the BIOS.

So...I check GRUB:

grub> find /boot/grub/stage1
(hd0,0)

So, it should be set properly...I think...since the external should become hd0 on BIOS boot set to USB...and...partition 0 should be sdb1...

So...I reboot.

"Operating System not found"

So, my idea is this: device.map says my hd0 = /dev/sda. But if that gets processed before menu.lst...then...I would be looking at /dev/sda for a boot. So, I go back into device.map...and modify it to this:

(hd0) /dev/sdb
(hd1) /dev/sda

This way, my menu.lst and device.map drive designations will correlate to my partition stuff.

So I reboot...and...

"Operating System not found"

So...I'm at a loss...the only thing I can think that might make a difference is if I were to somehow setup my mkinitfs to use USB or something as a pre-load. But, I don't know how to do it.

Alright...I hope that helps see what I have done on an install.

Please let me know any other ideas you might have to try to get this to boot.

Thanks again.

cheers

jck

[jck]

mitchhobbs and UnicornRider:

I have a solution:

evidently, there is a BIOS/USB signalling issue.

If the hard drive is powered up and initialized prior to the laptop doing its boot process, the USB drive will not respond to the laptop's boot signal.

If I power the USB drive on and then immediately also power on the laptop, it seems to go right into GRUB.

Evidently, this is either a problem exclusive to WD Elements USB drives and Dell BIOSes being paired...or...WD/Elements has an issue...or...Dell's BIOS has an issue.

Nonetheless, I will be testing to see if the drive will boot from my Toshiba A35 Satellite laptop as it should. If so, then I will let Dell know it's their BIOS that is the problem.

If not, I will tell WD that it doesn't work with 2 laptops I own.

Thanks to both of you again. I very much appreciate both of you assisting me in this.

Mitch:

Could you please let me know the model of USB drive you use in the Simpletech brand? If this drive won't work on both laptops, I will be purchasing something similar to yours to work with on my Dell.

If either or both companies help to resolve the issue, I will let everyone know.

If one or neither do anything to resolve the issue, then I will let you know too so that you don't spend $90 on a drive that won't boot properly, or $100s on a laptop that won't...with our beloved Linux.

Thanks so much again to you both for your help.

cheers

jck

[mitchhobbs]

Glad to help jck, I think you are using a "big" external usb drive with it's own power source. I'm using small pocket sized drives that are solely powered by the usb port. I don't have the model numbers handy but I bought them at Circuit City. Try Circuit city's website or www.simpletech.com. Let us know how it turns out.


Mitch

[jck]

Mitch,

Yes, the Elements powered by WD drive is a 250GB drive with its own power source.

I bought it due to the amount of space. Guess I should have done more research into the subject of what drives work best.

That will teach me to trust the brand name of a drive to work perfect.

Again, thanks. I will let you know when/if I hear something from Western Digital and/or Dell.

cheers

jck

P.S.- the "groot" thing...I found a quote for you from http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone/p15.htm#groot:

'groot' is short for 'grub root device'. That will be the partition you want your new Linux kernel to be installed in when you get a new one during an update. Your /boot partition is the partition you should specify here.
If you have a standard installation, with a /boot directory in your root partition, (/ ), then the number you will see here will be the same as the number you will see for kopt.
If you have a special installation with a separate /boot partition, the number you should see here will be the the partition number of your /boot partition.

Hope that helps.

[jck]

A sub-note:

I ordered a 2.5" Aluratek External USB 120GB stand-alone, port-powered hard drive this morning. :D

It supposedly has a Western Digital drive in it, and I want to see if it's a power control issue with the BIOS or something.

Hopefully it will get here Friday evening. I put rush shipping on it from Newegg.com so it will leave their warehouse (I think most drives come out of their Edison NJ location) tonight. Sometimes I have gotten FedEx Express Saver in 1 day from there.

Cross your fingers for me. Will try to put notes on here this weekend if I get it Friday. Want to keep anyone else getting a Dell laptop from making the same mistake in the Elements drive that I did.

Thanks again. More to come ASAP.

cheers

jck

[jck]

OK...final update about the Elements/Western Digital USB drive:

PLEASE READ THIS IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AN EXTERNAL USB DRIVE TO USE AS A BOOT DRIVE

According to the Western Digital technical support representative:

"Elements powered by WD" USB external 3.5" hard drives DO NOT SUPPORT BOOTING AND WESTERN DIGITAL TECH SUPPORT WILL NOT ASSIST YOU WITH GETTING THEM TO BOOT.

I tried to explain to them it was not an OS or software issue...that it was an issue with BIOS signalling and the drive reaching a state that it would not acknowledge the boot signal from my laptop, and send the data in its boot partition.

So...my warning:

If you want to dual boot with Linux from an external USB drive...do not get an Elements powered by WD external USB hard drive, unless you want to have to power the drive off and back on each time you reboot.

Anyways...it's a Western Digital issue...and...the rep said he'd put my opinion and suggestion in the notes...but, couldn't guarantee anyone would do anything with them.

I'll let you all know how the Aluratek drive works if I get it Friday.

Thanks again to all of you who helped me.

Cheers

jck

[mitchhobbs]

Thanks jck, Do let us know if it works.

Mitch

[jck]

Alright...update again:

Kubuntu 7.04 32 bit desktop w/WPA-PSK wireless...is running :D

ndiswrapper and the Dell drivers I got didn't like 64 bit. I'll mess with it when the new drive gets here next week. :)

Thanks again to everyone. I'm going to watch football (soccer) and have a drink...then will be back to mess around the new and improved, Kubuntu-fied laptop! :)

cheers

jck

[jck]

just another update:

Laptop is up, running, and external drive now has *3* distros on it...Mepis64, OpenSuse 10.2, and Kubuntu 7.04!

My next project is to get the high-end video driver working on my main PC so I can subscribe to Transgaming Cedega and work on getting Shadowbane and Quake to run on Kubuntu :)

Thanks again all...it is very much appreciated.