Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

[silver_arrow]

Hi,

Please take no offense from my posting, but rather take it as a cold shower...
I am not sure what you really accomplished if after this release people have the same problems or new ones...
That's not to say that you haven't made progress or did good things... You did, definitely.

But when you'll start putting aside the hype and sit down and look to your development process and the overall strategy you want to take from the technological point of view?...
What sense does make to annouce us that you are giving us very soon a very nice desktop GUI and other nice things when the os itself is a configuration nightmare?...

Solve first, the most important problems as:
- Hardware compatibility
- Wireless Networking
- Booting from external drives
- Etc...

If you have limits in solving these issues is better to be honest and recognize your limits in solving these issues.
Don't hype on next release features and you forget the past problems which people are confronted all over again until they fall asleep after nights of nightmare configurations...

I mean, if you want to put us at test from skills point of view I think you really succeeded to chalenge us...* ???
but is this the meaning of a new platform? To get crazy loosing nights making to boot an os out of an external HD or make work a wireless connection?

Common guys... have you not the feeling like me that something is not going ok with your overall strategy and especially with your development process?...

A little bit of self analisys will not be bad after all, isn't it?

Please you, the Linux zealots, spare me of your flames and bring some decent arguments on this forum.
If you believe this is only K(U)buntu's problem you are misguided...is everywhere in Linux land...
How can be possible to make this afirmation that Linux will ever replace Windows on desktop with such problems? Is someone dreaming with open eyes (day dreaming...)?

Time to get real folks... the Evil Empire as you describe Windows has started everything from scratch like you and it did everything thru its own efforts getting its fair share of the market with hard work and inteligence of all sorts. So let's be honest and learn something from Mr. Bill Gates or Steve Jobs the Mac guy...

Learn their lessons in order to avoid your own mistakes and then make a jump forward inteligently prepared.


All the best to you,
Silver Arrow

[claydoh]

Ooookay.......

As this forum is more a Kubuntu user forum, your post may be somewhat misplaced, perhaps Ubuntu/kubunru developers mailing lists would get a more proper response to your comments.

Now to my (as a non-zealot Desktop Linux end user) responses:

As you pointed out, the problems you mention are Linux wide and not specific to my favorite distro. There are very good reasons for this.

A big one is lack of support from the hardware manufacturers in the Linux sphere, which is something we cannot easily overcome.

Another huge factor is that (and I think many people forget this part) aside from a relatively small number of full-time, paid developers spread out over the Linux distribution landscape, all the folks who code, write documentation, create graphics, help out new folks in forums, IRC, and mailing lists, and donate money and services are VOLUNTEERS who mostly do their thing in their spare time.

This is not an excuse by any means, but in part an explanation of sorts. The developers of all the drivers, all the programs, the kernel, the Desktop environments, all basically on their own time, have to in many instances replicate what PC hardware manufacturers, etc have done, quite a lot of it without any help, documentation or anything from those parties. And they have to do it over again when new hardware is released (this seems particularly true of wireless hardware as this is an area of massive growth and change)

As to overall hardware compatibility, see above :)
But I have this example as a caveat:
I helped a friend reinstall windows on her computer, she got a new hard drive and was essentially starting from scratch. I wanted to show her Linux as she had seen my home system and was curious, but as she used quite a bit of specialized software (she was a research biologist) I popped in the livecd and booted to that, and she was intrigued enough to let me install Kubuntu to her system for fun. After about a half an hour, she was up and running, browsing, printing, playing with Kontact, etc.

Then we went to install Windows. I will say I have not installed Windows on a machine in quite a while, 2 years or more. But the process wasn't too difficult, just time consuming. After getting it booted up, We had to track down all the drivers I had forgotten to find ahead of time (namely the lan driver so we could get online) we finally after literally over 2 1/2 hours got the OS, Office, Symantec, scanner/printer/lan etc installed.

Maybe I was lucky and we both have well supported hardware, I don't know.

Also remember Dapper is LTS (long term support) and there are a good stream of fixes and updates

As to the "hype", well just go to Kubuntu's download page (http://www.kubuntu.com/download.php), and notice it mentions:

There are now two versions of Kubuntu! The newest Kubuntu version, 6.10 features the latest technology and is supported for 18 months. However, some users would prefer to continue using Kubuntu 6.06 LTS, which includes long-term support.

Ubuntu's site (http://www.ubuntu.com/products/GetUbuntu/download?action=show&redirect=download) has a similar statement. The hype must be coming from imho a majority of users who have had good experiences here ;D

[dsquared]

I have posted before about my problems http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=10360.0
with Edgy - I have still not been able to install EDGY or reinstall DAPPER - I have however been able to install PCLInux (nice distro that just works! but doesn't have very deep forum support) - I have also been able to install Mepis - (another Distro that just works - but it isn't my old Kbuntu!) - Why oh Why can you not deliver a product that is ready for prime time? -
My machine is hardly bleeding edge but can power other Linux and Windows O/S's.
This release looks like it was rushed out the door warts & all. There appears to be no concern for quality control. Those other 2 Distro's just work and are comparible to Kubuntu.
Exhibit 1)
Come on just look at the posts, in this forum listing problem after problem of people just trying to get this release up and running.
Exhibit 2)
Look at the post that is pinned to the start of this group - you can't get the right MD5 checksum . BTW When do you think this hicup might be fixed? What kind of impression does this leave with a first time user? Attention to detail is what leads to success in ths world - - Instead of jumping into the deepend and starting development on Feisty - why not step back and try and address some of the issues that are Irritants in the current product - the benefit of linux coming in so many flavours is that if users don't like one they will jump to another - what ever happened to Sorcer Linux? - The message is adapt/improve/support and you will succeed in the world of Distros

If I wanted patches & service packs I would be waiting for Bill and his Viruses Infections Spyware Trojans & Adware installed

[silver_arrow]

Claydoh,

You say something there...but this is not the way out of the problem.
To be clearer in my thinking here is what I mean:

I. First the hardware compatibility issue should be taken with the outmost seriousness.
I think the Ubuntu - Kubuntu teams have these two choices:
- Create a group of people especially dedicated to this important issue.
They should be organized in two subgroups:
1. A group gathering the hardware requirements in order to assure the proper implementation of it
2. Another group which takes the role of talking to hardware manufacturers in order to get them collaborate regarding their platform, driver, etc.

II. A second posibility is to initiate a wider initiative on Linux community in order to create a hardware detection layer or framework which will assure the proper detection and install of drivers, etc on the Linux platform.

III. It is not in contradiction of Open Source community spirit to have finally defined a business model.
I think JBoss is an example to follow. Just sell support for your platform in order to get a steady stream of income
This will maintain at least a team of professional developers working full time on the project being paid.

In this respect I think Ubuntu - Kubuntu should be thinking to address this issues in a more intelligent and imaginative way, as such:
- Whoever wants support from the fellow Linux colleagues at free level gets into this forum, but... IT SHOULD BE ANOTHER FORUM IN WHICH MANY OF US WITH EXPERTISE WOULD BE READY TO HELP FOR A REASONABLE FEE.
As owner of this os, Ubuntu, Kubuntu whould also draw a charge from the money paid to a technical expert by a user in need for support. Everybody gains from this business model as you can see.

There is still room for improvement, but what is nedeed is the WILL TO IMPLEMENT IT.
AFTER ALL UBUNTU IS ABOUT COMMUNITY, ISN'T IT?

Another thing which is bugging me is the discrepancy between the sad reality on this forums regarding the hardware compatibility and other related issues and the fact that is said that LTS exists... My overall impression is that the os is so bugy or unable to satisfy a lot of the hardware compatibility requirements that this LTS came out because of that?!#....

You get my point?

The support should be given as part of the platform knowing in good faith that this platform works for most of the hardware / software and of course only the exceptions would trigger the support option. When Linux would come to this?

I think is nedeed there a quality jump and change of mentality combined with more business rigor in order to bring this platform to its potential.


All the best,
Silver Arrow

[aysiu]

No flames, but you should at least understand the issues before you criticize...
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ

[silver_arrow]

Aysiu,

Instead pointing me to a carefully done FAQ, you should open your eyes wide and read the content of these forums.
What do you see? Happy users or users in distress?

My posts are oriented not only to a cheap criticism but rather to a call for more realism...
I offered some solutions also, this is named if you are aware Positive Criticism.
Is very polite to say as in this FAQ:

- Install the live cd, if something doesn't work then DON'T INSTALL IT.

IS THAT THE WAY TO ADDRESS THE REAL ISSUES THIS DISTRIBUTION FACES RIGHT NOW?
Please, get out of the dream and see the issues around you... I refer to the Ubuntu - Kubuntu issues.
There are here many users realising that this release was "hurried" to come out of the door just for the PR purposes

By the way, have you worked in a real big IT Consultancy in order to realise what quality processes are employed in order to deliver top notch software?
Instead creating carefully FAQ's will not be better to look what can be done to improve the overall software development process, and stick to a realistic release deadline?

Let me propose a simple release cycle here:
- Release software
- Gather the bugs and other pending issues
- Address the current's release issues
- Release patches
- If achieved stability for the current release then go for the next release

Is that hard to implement? And this is just a simplistic way to put it...


All the best,
Silver Arrow

[kubicle]

I'd think the reason why aysiu pointed out the faq is that your criticism isn't anything new. It gets tiresome to write up long, articulate and to-the-facts answers to a similar 'criticism' for the 'hundredth' time.



nstead pointing me to a carefully done FAQ, you should open your eyes wide and read the content of these forums.
What do you see? Happy users or users in distress?

That really isn't a good meter, by default people tend to post when they are having problems, rather than when everything is going nicely. For most of us, kubuntu (and even edgy) is working quite well for our needs (and beyond).

If you want a slower release schedule (with more polished releases), you should stick with the LTS releases (like dapper), the in-between releases are sort of test releases where new technology and implementation can be introduced and ironed out.

I for one feel the quick release-cycle of (k)ubuntu is a strong-point, for me atleast. And I've also found out the hardware detection on (k)ubuntu is among the better distros out there.

I'm sure you have good intentions behind your criticism, and some of your points are definitely valid arguments, but saying things like 'you should open your eyes' or 'Please, get out of the dream and see the issues around you' when someone doesn't agree with your arguments isn't the best way to get a point across (at least not to me)

Note: I speak only for myself, and no one else. I'm not a developer (for kubuntu)

[GUIGuy]

- Install the live cd, if something doesn't work then DON'T INSTALL IT.



... ahem... did that. LiveCD worked fine. Then I upgraded Dapper. I'm the brown stuff up to my neck. Edgy boots to this 'test pattern' screen and locks up. Cannot get a CLI. Cannot mount the HDDs from the liveCD. Thankfully I had a copy of Knoppix. It saved the day in so far that I am able to back a few files I needed. (Pity there's no 'rollback' option').

But back to the topic at hand. In respect of my madness today ("downgrading dapper to edgy ;D ) I accept all the responsibility, as should anyone who dives into untested waters. It was an incredibly stupid act on my part given dapper was working well.

However, in a general sense I concur with the sentiments of the first post in this thread.

Enough rants- I have files to salvage

regards


The GUIGuy
+++++++++
I am probably too stupid to be using Linux.

[lingenfr]

That's right, I agree, while we are at it, lets slash the teams salaries! Oh yeah, that's right, kubuntu, ubuntu, edubuntu, and xubuntu are all gifts to the rest of us uneducated non-programmers and even the grammatically challenged like green lantern, silver surfer, whatever. It is natural to be frustrated when your computer is messing up. Unfortunately, it is typically the whining ACs (yes, from office, not slashdot) who 1) NEVER, paypal a few bucks to the programming teams, 2) NEVER visit the forum unless it is to gripe or have their questions answered, and 3) run around bragging to their friends about what leet haxors they are running linux.

Sorry to be a chapped arse, but I have done enough programming to have an appreciation for the time that these VOLUNTEERS likely contribute so the rest of us can be cheap, ungrateful, and self-righteous in our indignation when we have a problem.

pierce-arrow, if you will post your address, I will be glad to send you my other linux distribution CDs for you to try out. As a bonus, I will also be glad to send you a few magazine subscriptions, a few pizzas and maybe a visit from some of those nice young men with the black pants, white shirts and bicycles who really want to change your life.

Please everyone, let this pinhead go back to shouting at passing cars and lets get back to constructively assisting each other with making the most out of our FREE operating system.

[aysiu]

I'm sorry, but I re-read your original post, and I didn't see any constructive criticism in there.

Do you really believe developers have up their sleeves support for all available hardware but just decided, "Hey, let's not implement this support even though we have it"? You can't just demand, "Hey, get this to work on all hardware." That's not constructive criticism any more than it is constructive for a coach "strategizing" a win to say, "Okay, team. You know how we've got to win? By beating the other team and not messing up!"

Yeah, nice strategy there. Very constructive.

Read the FAQ next time instead of balking at the link. It was written precisely because your criticism is not constructive and not original. All of your points are addressed there.

[silver_arrow]

Hi,

Let's make something clear from very beginning:
- My purpose is to point out that things could have been done better.

What really disapoints me is the continuous configuration hell any Linux distribution is putting an user thru.
I clearly said that I appreciate their work and I will continue to monitor this distribution since I am interested about it
But... we have to see also the drawbacks of their work. Their work could have been done in a better way.

We all understand that not everything can be covered at once by a release, but at least if a release has a series of issues these should be addressed first in order to stabilize that release. What sense does make to go for a next release and to BRING A BRAND NEW IDEA when the code base on which is based the next release has clearly issues still to be addressed. It is exactly this kind of situation which I want THEM to see or YOU to see it.

It doesn't take too much time to see the efect of such development strategy...just look into this forum and you'll clarify yourself right away.
Let me give you an example, just today happened:

I started Ubuntu Edgy's install program. I followed all steps quite well and fast.
When I came to partitioning It was there previously a partition in my external USB HD of type EXT3.
I chosed this partition to install the os and I checked the Format option.

For some reason I got an error message saying that it can't proceed with the action since the kernel can't read the partition. I was advised to unmount and restart the process. Ok, I've done that using the installer ad also I DELETED the partition.

I restarted the partitioning process, by creating a new EXT3 partition and I clicked on Format also.
Well... I got the same message as described above. Moreover I stoped the installer and I went to GPART.
I did it all over again by deleting the partition and using not only EXT3 but I also tried other partion types. NO WAY, IT DIDN'T WORKED, WHATEVER I DID.

I installed before countless, other distributions and I passed this step succesfully.
I leave this particular situation to your judgement and freedom of speech...

I understand that you support them in their work, but this is not the correct approach when openly we should discuss such matters. The fact their work is under criticism is for their own benefit, PLEASE SEE IT THIS WAY.
On the other hand I don't understand this attiude as AYSIU has, in insisting a FAQ has ADDRESSED MY CONCERNS.
How come? My concerns, other users concerns will be addressed not by reading a well crafted FAQ but by solving the issues which we are confronted with and the way to do this is to start using a professional approach to software development by these teams.

On that side of changing my life as Lingenfr points out in his post, I think he's right with one thing:
- Yes, my life was changed since by installing K(U)buntu I must frustrate myself for hours and days to make work a basic thing as partitioning a HD, or having a Wireless connection, etc.

All the best,
Silver Arrow

[terje1311]

Just a short note on the diversity of this issue. I have had 6-7 experiences just lately where Windows XP wouldn't install hardware - even when using the provided XP install CD - that I just plugged into Kubuntu and it worked. My experience is that this holds true especially for older hardware. And it is such a nice change not having to run all over the internet looking for proprietary (often obsolete and non-existing) drivers to make the prehistoric scanner or printer or sound card work, which I have to do every time I install XP on a friend's old PC.

Another refreshing thing with K/Ubuntu is that when I do have install problems - Google is my friend, and somewhere out there someone has usually made a fix that i can apply. Thanx a million to all of you!

That said, I still have to start my Acer 5040 twice to make the wireless card work ;D

[Tynach]

Amusing. Truly amusing.

The only REALL problem I'm having with Kubuntu/Linux is that I keep installing something stupid, like a new theme from KDE-LOOK, and suddenly Kicker doesn't work. I find out I didn't have KBFX installed, and that caused the theme instalation major problems. Almost all the problems I had were my fault.

Kubuntu is the first distro/OS that auto-detected ALL my hardware correctly from the start. Not even Windows could do that. The problem I had with hardware was installing the graphics driver, because the GUI messed it up, but simply editing the xorg.conf file made all the difference.

Another issue is that a lot of computer illiterate people are starting to use Linux because we brag it's "Ease of use." Face it, Linux is easy to use, but you need to understand it's terminology. My dad didn't know what an X Server was, so when he tried out Debian, he told it to install a desktop environment, but he didn't want to make his computer a server, so he told it not to install the "Sound Server," the "X server," and any other "Server." This resulted in an entirely well made and sleek CLI based opperating system, instead of an entirely well made and sleek GUI based opperating system. When I told him what he did wrong, he didn't think I could be right about what I meant by servers was different from the Windows form of the word, meaning a computer that holds information for a network.

[jrsoit]

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

That being said, I do not mean to offend anyone but I hope you see my point. You are entitled to your opinion, but don't post something like this in a user help forum, this should be a post to developers, not everyday users. I would suggest not starting a post like this without expecting a flame war. And if it truely bothers you that much go to a diff. distro Linux is about choice, choose differently next time or go back to windows.

[Pendragon]

I think the poster above raises the valid point, we do brag about it's 'Ease of Use' and that's just it, Linux is easy to use just like XP is easy to use and GEM was easy to use, but nowhere do we say Linux is easy to install.

To the trained person any operating system is easy to install, to the untrained person in the street any operating system would be a nightmare the first time they installed it. I've installed many operating systems over the years, from CP/M, DOS, OS2/Warp (and if you think Linux is hard just try OS2/Warp), GEM, Windows (all versions including servers) and of course Linux in various flavours.

All the above required some learning time, some more than others but that is what life is all about learning new things.

So far Mandriva 2006/2007 and Kubuntu 6.06/6.10 are by far the easiest to install by a long way. There are problems with the distro, just like there are problems with XP (and now Vista), but we as humans have the knowledge to overcome these problems and get a working system.

If anyone had said to me in my teens that 45 years later I would be using a computer to talk to anyone in the world in real time, play music from bits of round plastic, play games that look almost like the real world and write silly bits of text like this, I would have thought either they were drunk, daft, or from another planet.

So lets just enjoy the fruits of the labours of the multitude of programmers and others and thank them wholeheartedly for their sterling work, and if you don't like what they do then get off your backside learn to program and put it right as you see the world.

My thanks to everyone who contributed to Madriva and Kubuntu, regards, P.

[Bongo5HH]

I've found getting Kubuntu installed from scratch is a fast and easy thing. Answer 6 questions hit Enter and wait while the thing installs... reboot and you're done.

HOWEVER, getting Kubuntu to be USEFUL is entirely different topic. Kubuntu is MUCH easier to install than XP is (from my experience).

BUT getting XP to be useful is MUCH easier (and quicker) than Kubuntu.

Now you tell me which is more important?

With Windows, any drivers I'm missing can be found by going to the hardware vendor's website - even though other than Video and Sound I've never HAD (read "needed" to get to work) to install drivers other than what comes from MS.

With Linux ( in general) I have to scour the net for information on weird command line stuff, third party tools that half work, and get flamed for my efforts.

Is it really SO hard for the expert team who build Kubuntu but who can't put non-free stuff in the OS to put together a utility which DOES install this stuff properly on their OS?

They wouldn't be distributing it, and the linux zealot's sensiblities wouldn't be offended. The best part is, the struggling Windows to Linux convert would be able to get up and running. Then I could at the pace my schedule allows learn how to do things in Linux so I wouldn't be stuck.

It's not that Linux isn't a fantastic OS - clearly it is. It's not that Kubuntu is not valueable - clearly it is. It's just that there seems to be this inside group that knows everything and the rest of us have to beg to find tid bits about it.

ALL THIS BEING SAID, I have not run into much trouble on this board. People here have been the most pleasant of all the Linux users I've had contact with.

Even with all the niceness here, I still can't get my wireless card to work... I'm exhausted with trying to figure simple things out.

I can't turn my touch pad off (easily)

And I can't get R&W access to a USB hard drive I created with Windows.

These are just three of the things I have left to figure out... there are 3 months worth of other things which I have struggled through.

Sorry for the rant - this IS Kubuntu related. If the team at Kubuntu solved this issue wouldn't it be amazing for the new user? That truly would be "Kutting Edge" hehe

Kev

[shadowfx78]

sheesh if you have a problem with linux dont use it. I love my kubuntu and all my hardware was detected properly. If you want a computer that has no problems get one purpose built for use with a certain linux distrobution.

Why bash a very well constructed operating system, simply because it didnt work just the way you wanted it too. if you want that go crawling back to windows, and forever be raped by microsoft. When you struggle to figure something out you learn how to do it and possibly can help others with their problems thats what the linux community is all about helping one another get the best of their operating systems.

[Bongo5HH]

sheesh if you have a problem with linux dont use it.* I love my kubuntu and all my hardware was detected properly.* If you want a computer that has no problems get one purpose built for use with a certain linux distrobution.

Why bash a very well constructed operating system, simply because it didnt work just the way you wanted it too.* if you want that go crawling back to windows, and forever be raped by microsoft.* When you struggle to figure something out you learn how to do it and possibly can help others with their problems thats what the linux community is all about helping one another get the best of their operating systems.


This is the typical response you get when you dare bring up the short-comings of Linux.

How is this helpful?

If the statement of learning to help others is true, how come you haven't offered help to those here who need it? I'm glad it works for you. Really I am. However, you can look at the forums and see it's not the case for everyone.

So instead of "Gee it works for me, you shouldn't use it.. or maybe you should have a purpose built OS if you really want one that works." Why not say something along the lines of "Ya I struggled too. Here's what I learned... or ya that's a good idea. Since I've learned how to make things work maybe I could work with you to make a document that helps the New Guy able to get basic things working. Want to help?"

[Fintan]

@pendragon.
I wholeheartedly agree. With everything you have said.

Albight i might say that a few points of this thread have merit, if said correctly..

I still have problems with the edgy grub. and no one has come up with a serious solution.
Heh? What of it. i have drapper to work with and edgy to play the edge with. That what this release is for, going to the edge and trying out new stuff.

And sure some hardware just is to exotic.

These guys do a fine job trying to stay on top of the HW question and i take my hat off to them.

Ever try vista?
It won't even get close to working on a "normal" joes machine much less install with all the drivers, etc. No, i won't go and buy a mac for $700, why not a sgc for $10000. There is no point in that.
so yes lets stop this jibberisch and go back to real topics, that help others.

Cheers to all and have fun
F

[jdunn]

I'm quite happy with Edgy. It installed flawlessly for me. Of course, I know that my hardware is very linux-friendly...as I intended it to be. You have to understand that the over-all hardware problem is not the fault of Linux. Many hardware developers design drivers for M$ Windows and don't give a thought to making linux drivers or disclosing hardware specs to the public. In this case, linux developers have to reverse engineer the hardware to develop drivers for linux. They may have to hookup a protocol analyzer and crack open the case to see what vender components are used inside your printer, wireless router, or whatever you're using. This can take alot of time, even for someone who does it professionally...It involves guesswork. If lucky, developers can modify existing drivers to work on a previously unsupported piece of hardware...but, I would imagine drivers are sometimes built from scratch (also time consuming). I'm sorry if (K)ubuntu does not work for you. You may try one of the other distros and if that doesn't work, you can always go back to Windows.

[randcoop]

I'll vote with Edgy Kubuntu as well. Perhaps the best comments here, IMHO, are from aysiu, who pointed out that the original poster did not say anything specific, did not ask a question that could be answered, and did not make any constructive criticism.

Linux has problems with wireless. Absolutely. Linux has problems with hardware recognition. Absolutely.

For those of us who have been using Linux for many years, those comments are empty. For anyone with a bit of knowledge about drivers and Microsoft's hold on the world of hardware, such comments wouldn't even be made. What we know is that Linux in general and even (K)Ubuntu in particular has made huge strides with regard to these issues.

The recent upgrades that I did on two different IBM/Lenovo laptops went quite well indeed. And the end users are thrilled with the new version. At the same time, I've got users who are still happily using Dapper and who don't want to take any chances. I've also got a user who wants me to change them back to Kubuntu from Windows XP after three months with that OS.

So I salute the (K)Ubuntu team, suggest that people who are dissatisfied with Edgy try Dapper, and that people who are dissatisfided with Linux try Windows or Macintosh.

[Bongo5HH]

randcoop

What do you suggest for people who REALLY want to use Linux, but are finding it hard to get it working?

Going to Dapper solves nothing for ME, as the same issues I had there are here. WiFi, turning hardware such as the Touchpad off, and getting proper access to drives created in Windows (FAT32, and even a Kubuntu install on an external HDD).

I've just discovered after my second install of Edgy (first was upgrade that went flawlessly... of course I couldn't leave well enough alone DOH!) and now I can't seem to find any of the programs I use via Adept (I've enabled Universe and Multiverse) Programs are Audacity, Blender, Hydrogen, aMSN.

There is MUCH that I love about Kubuntu.

Vista is a MS killer if you ask me.. not sure how their customers can afford to move to that OS but that's a dif topic.

Anyway, my point is the same as every new user of Linux makes. We know all you "old timers" know everything and that our concerns are "empty" to you. However, Linux can not become main stream until these concerns are answered.

SOMEONE somewhere needs to take the bull by the horns and get this stuff dealt with. Until then those who know how to get it working can sit around feeling superior to those who are trapped in MS land - because they actually need their computers to do something.

The fact that hardware vendors don't support Linux is an issue - however, I see that it's POSSIBLE to get WiFi working in Kubuntu. I hear long winded tails of how MY WiFi card works.. however, finding an explanation of HOW to get it to work, written in ENGLISH, that doesn't require me to be a Linux expert is seemingly impossible.

BCM 43XX in case you're wondering.

It's been a "ranty" day for me... sorry. Frustrated. Not your fault.

Kev

[Bongo5HH]

Ah I just noticed something.

No matter how many times I enable a rep in Adept it doesn't actually get enabled. Strange...

I just did it manually with the list and am installing Automatix 2. Hopefully that will help.

Kev

[n7vrz]

This will be my only reply to silver-arrow.
Let's get him a completely new system. Give him a Windows (I know that's a bad word here) CD. Take away ALL of the driver disks that came with his equipment. Wireless, lan, chipset, EVERYTHING!!
Now let's see how fast he complains to the Windows forums about 'lack of hardware support'.
;D ;D ;D

[lyall]

remember the old days of DOS and Unix you do not have windows to help you around on the pc or mainframe.
People had to find ways to get their work done and slow it was. We thought it was great.
Try doing accounting by hand and have thirty plus pages to check and balance.

Today we can not wait for any thing, we think we should have it 5 days ago.
If more people helped like we did years ago and stop thinking we need it now.

As for hardware we can search for the hardware that works with Linux and buy it. The other manufacters will start writing code for their product to work on Linux to sell it to us.

You ALL have a GREAT life and think before you jump. ::)

[lingenfr]

The fact that hardware vendors don't support Linux is an issue - however, I see that it's POSSIBLE to get WiFi working in Kubuntu. I hear long winded tails of how MY WiFi card works.. however, finding an explanation of HOW to get it to work, written in ENGLISH, that doesn't require me to be a Linux expert is seemingly impossible.

BCM 43XX in case you're wondering.

I just did a Linksys USB 54G adapter with this chipset the other day. It is non-trivial with ndiswrapper, but there are howto's out there that work. I had to do an ifdown/ifup, but then it took off. How do I know to do that, I imagine that I read it along the way in a book or on a forum like this. It can be frustrating, but don't blame the developers. Kubuntu is the best distribution I have used and the support on this forum (and the Ubuntu forum) is a big piece of that. If you want to get your wifi working, search first then start a thread and I will share what I learned.

[javierrivera]

Anyway, my point is the same as every new user of Linux makes. We know all you "old timers" know everything and that our concerns are "empty" to you. However, Linux can not become main stream until these concerns are answered.


Linux is main stream. I'll be very surprised if I find just one person that surfs the web and is not using linux.

Linux is not probably in his desktop, but his packets will travel throught linux routers to hit linux webservers, that were found on a linux search engine.



SOMEONE somewhere needs to take the bull by the horns and get this stuff dealt with. Until then those who know how to get it working can sit around feeling superior to those who are trapped in MS land - because they actually need their computers to do something.


Lots of people, companies, foundations are trying to deal with that stuff. Most of the distros of the world will love to be able to support all the wireless cards in the world out of the box.

The biggest ones are expending lots of money in it.

But it is a huge work. Worse, wireless cards are evolving much faster that anyone, ANY operating system manufacturer can't follow them. Even Microsoft.

Come on, how many times did a wireless card work out of the box on windows. For me, never.

As long as wireless chipset change that fast, and manufacturers don't make linux dirvers, wireless support will be lacking on linux. That's a fact.

No one has enought resources to reverse engineer drivers so fast.

Try to connect it and see if it automagically work.
Try ndiswrapper.

If both fail you are out of luck. It's not about some secret knowledge hidden by us "old timers". It is just a fact of live.

BTW, I do much more on my computers running linux than most people on windows. And I have no problem in running Windows XP in my tablet where linux is unable to cope with the pen and the wireless. I'll prefer to run linux, I have colinux installed to run some programs (specially rsync), and of course I do my real work (the one that pays the computer) on la linux desktop. I do miss proper security, kpdf, kmail, the easiness of package installation, proper command line, and lots of small things, but I have to choose.

Javier.

[Freddan]

Why on earth can someone come here and demand things, you have gotten this distro for free, they even send you cd's free of charge ?!?

Why on earth can someone come here and complain about linux and the shortage of drivers from there hardware supplier? Pls go and complain to them instead and we might get somewhere on that.

Why on earth can someone complain about the lack of gui configuration tools. If every developer find it boring to make that tool, they shouldn't do it. You have gotten this for free and they code and maintain for free. They do this for fun and you haven't paid a single dime!!!

Why does everybody has such a hangup to conquer Microsoft in the big desktop battle, there aren't such a thing. Linux isn't even on the map, Linux doesn't breed Microsoft in the neck, Microsoft don't feel the sting.

I'm sorry for sounding harsh but I'm getting tired of hearing these types of complaint about a free OS made by mostly unpaid people. If you would buy a Mac, there are just certain Mac compatible hardware that will work. This is more or less the same for Linux, we do however have a substantially larger pool of workable hardware to choose from. Check your wireless card before you buy it, do the company behind it support Linux. If they don't, guess what, don't buy!!!* */// Freddan

[Fintan]

Amen and hallalulia! to that.

[GUIGuy]

Amen and hallalulia! to that.


Well, yes and no... I don think the original post or Freddanś response help the debate. Both only stimulate passions.

Maybe the real issue is that those coming over from MS Windows to Linux are expecting Windows?


regards

[silver_arrow]

Hi Everyone,


Thanks for your time.

Actually my purpose in starting this thread was to point out the short-commings of the development process U(K)ubuntu teams are employing. I made clear statements regarding this.
It's definitely place for improvement.

I do not expect such problems to be solved overnight... But a more focused approach in solving the issues this Linux Distro faces will be welcomed. This is my point of view finally.

Why release a new version when the previous one has still problems?... After all no market pressure is on these developers, isn't it? They could take their time and sort out all pending issues. This will make this Linux distro even more respected.

We can't blame indefinitely other hardware manufacturers holding their designs regarding their wireless chips, etc.
If you go on Broadcom's web site you'll see they posted a SDK for Linux, one of them is Debian based, so it's good for U(K)ubuntu also.

There's also this issue in promoting a more organized developer community and interest them to do even more.
How can be done this? Simple I would say:
- Please sit down, think and come with a minimal business model.

From these money just hire a development team to do the job in an organized manner having development standards, etc. This will improve a lot the quality of the distribution.
There's one guy here who said I need Windows... If I nedeed Windows I would come here? I am searching for an alternative os and I am interested about Linux a lot.

But...should we live with the same hardware and configurations nightmares from version to version?
Common people...see the facts... People are very excited about Linux but once you get in these situations you simply look back at Windows or Mac and you say:
- Wow, man, that works there and at least on these os's I don't loose nights to configure my os...

Simple judgement my friends... You want to succeed you must deliver a no brainer installation and configuaration os
A little bit of maturity in these issues is required. This geek type of attitude it doesn't sound well with a Linux distribution which wants to be the best out there.

Time to grow and live up to expectations...which finally you setup...otherwise people will grow tired of these issues and will go away from Linux.


All the best to you,
Silver Arrow

[javierrivera]

Why release a new version when the previous one has still problems?...


Errr... that exactly the point with Ubuntu. Latest software Debian based.

I really believe that you are completely lost. What you are looking for is called Debian Stable.



We can't blame indefinitely other hardware manufacturers holding their designs regarding their wireless chips, etc.
If you go on Broadcom's web site you'll see they posted a SDK for Linux, one of them is Debian based, so it's good for U(K)ubuntu also.


Yes we can. It's quite easy in fact ;).

What is impossible is to build drivers for each hardware bit in the world without manufacturers help.



There's also this issue in promoting a more organized developer community and interest them to do even more.
How can be done this? Simple I would say:
- Please sit down, think and come with a minimal business model.


Yes, it was true. You are completely lost here.

Most of the distros out there have a business model. Some of them are even making quite a sane quantity of money.

Can I tell you a secret?. Mark is expecting to recover all those millions that he is pumping into *Ubuntu ;). And yes, he has a plan.



From these money just hire a development team to do the job in an organized manner having development standards,


Errrrr.... most linux distros are doing this for years.



People are very excited about Linux but once you get in these situations you simply look back at Windows or Mac and you say:
- Wow, man, that works there and at least on these os's I don't loose nights to configure my os...


Much more hardware "just works" in linux than in Mac.



Simple judgement my friends... You want to succeed you must deliver a no brainer installation and configuaration os


We already did succeed. Linux is not some strange future promise. It's the most used server so on the internet. It's used in 90% of the world biggest supercomputers.

OSS is a success, it's in the heart of every os on the world. It power most of websites...

And a linux installation and configuration is no-brainer when you have supported hardware. Much easier than windows.



This geek type of attitude it doesn't sound well with a Linux distribution which wants to be the best out there.


It's not a geek attitude. It's just that you came here saying things that where nice ideas 15 years ago (distros should have a business model, developers need to be paid).

If this was slashdot I'd say:

RTFFAQ.

Nothing new here, move along.

Javier.

[silver_arrow]

Javier,

I have not come here to antagonize with anyone, to make that clear.
But I will ask you few simple questions:
1. If everything seem so fine in Linux land why all these serious problems, especially on the hardware compatibility side of it?
2. If there's a business model behind this distribution how come we see for every release the same issues all over again?
3. You say Linux is a success on the server side. Partially, let me tell you. Last time I had a project for a major financial company I've seen Sun Solaris and IPlanet, Weblogic, etc...
4. As far as I remember the acceptance of normal folk, will promote this os. I also happen to remember that on the Linux Server (which is an offspring of Unix after all) you don't need a GUI...isn't it?
5. How do you want Linux to get accepted by the wide business community and normal user with such issues it displays from quite some time?

What you don't want to see from my postings is that the first level of excitement should have passed from long ago...
You set goals for this platform, you promote it as the best, etc... you must live up to your promises.
I am trying to tell you and others, that when you want to become important then you must be careful not to dissapoint, simply because people are expecting to deliver on that promise.

That's not to say, that there was no progress. It is... but with a lot of PR which doesn't get supported by the reality of everyday usage, especially by the normal user. I am really amazed to see so many people answering in this thread, being in state of the denial of the current issues this distribution faces.

Is this the appropriate attitude to have when someone raises valid concerns?
Last time I remember, criticizing for a good reason it brought reflection and finally some progress, whether is about an os or human being things must be analysed and solved.

On the other hand I don't think you ever can compare Linux with Mac... Windows with all its mightier dominance can't beat Mac on desktop and the quality of its products. This being said I have a question:

- To which segment of the market Linux in general wants to get sold and accepted?
1. Corporations?
2. Normal Folk?
3. Education?

See, until these strategic things will not be sorted out, Linux will suffer of a lot of zealot type of attitudes and kind of answers I got here... If there's no focus on a particular market segment how do you want Linux to succeed?
A proper, orientation toward a certain market segment will also drive the requirements of this os, that's the point I am trying to make here.

You'll see in time, that many of these distributions will disapear since they have no focus on a particular market and neither a decent product strategy. I predict the following:
1. There will be 2-3 big distributions which will survive.
2. There may be other small ones trying to "make it"...
3. If Linux will become "a serious business" and one of the major companies will bring some innovative technologies in this platform, paying hard their developers, naturally they would like to preserve their investment and their lead
How do you see this situation, because there's no serious licensing model in which a significant intellectual property would be protected in this case.
Why such company would give for free their fruit of intelligence and lose the profit they could have earned rightfully to others which have practically not contributed.

Finally this will happen, because is normal to get your share of the market, thrive thru your own work and merits and finally pay your bills and education of your children in a world which gives nothing for free in the most important aspects of life.


All the best,
Silver Arrow

[Bongo5HH]

I just did a Linksys USB 54G adapter with this chipset the other day. It is non-trivial with ndiswrapper, but there are howto's out there that work. I had to do an ifdown/ifup, but then it took off. How do I know to do that, I imagine that I read it along the way in a book or on a forum like this. It can be frustrating, but don't blame the developers. Kubuntu is the best distribution I have used and the support on this forum (and the Ubuntu forum) is a big piece of that. If you want to get your wifi working, search first then start a thread and I will share what I learned.


Thanks. I haven't given the install of the WiFi card an "honest" go on Edgy yet. Too busy. I will likely take you up on your offer. It would be great to have the laptop mobile again.

I agree with some of the more reasonable posters above, any Linux Distro needs to pick an audience and solve all (or as many as possible) problems for that audience. That's the key to success in whatever enterprise you undertake. Why would releasing an OS be different?

Some people think of Ubuntu as a huge success now. And in comparison to much of it competition it is. However, it's not "main stream". No matter how many Linux machines my info travels through to get to the server this Forum is operating on it doesn't change the fact that I'm typing from a Windows machine (at work). And nearly everyone else on the net is interfacing with the Net through Windows machines as well.

As Linux becomes more mainstream (and I believe it will) more hardware support will come from the manufacturers.

Until then Linux Distros ought to be wise. IE - what stops the Kubuntu team from making a page of all the supported hardware and include solutions for special cases? Imagine if a user could come to the main website and have all his hardware questions answered = from sorry there's no way it's going to work right to stand on your head and hit Alt-Tab-F6 17 times then say "Kubuntu" REALLY loud and it will work.

Imagine if the popularity grew because new users had the info they needed, and imagine if people bought hardware based on it's support in Kubuntu....

Seems so simple to me. Of course it's not.. I'm not nearly "simple" enough myself to believe the problems can all be solved so easily.

[Freddan]

Here you go.

http://www.linuxcompatible.org/compatibility.html
http://www.linux-tested.com/

/// Freddan

[Freddan]

1. If everything seem so fine in Linux land why all these serious problems, especially on the hardware compatibility side of it?
Hardware manufacturers seldom wants to release all of their secrets and inventions of there bleeding edge hardware, and it's not that easy for a kernel developer to make a driver with no real info about the card. When a hardware company does release a driver for GNU/Linux, they WILL make it with a proprietary license and distros with a open source minded philosophy, won't use it. (Debian, Ubuntu and many more). Other stuff as mp3 support, cant be used due to legality problems mainly in US I think :-). If you would have payed for your distro, that wouldn't be a problem, but you got Kubuntu for free so learn to live with it or go buy yourself a copy of SUSE.

Ubuntu is thinking of implementing drivers for nvidia with the next release though, and on that day Ubuntu won't be free (as in freedom of speech) anymore :-(.


2. If there's a business model behind this distribution how come we see for every release the same issues all over again?
"Linux" isn't made by Canonical! If you having problems with some (for example) app in KDE, it's not Linux or Canonical fault. If you having some trouble with for example your wifi card, don't blame developers from Canonical or even developers of the linux kernel, blame the company behind it. Canonical cant be everywhere and fix everything, small steps.


3. You say Linux is a success on the server side. Partially, let me tell you. Last time I had a project for a major financial company I've seen Sun Solaris and IPlanet, Weblogic, etc...
Ehh, Gnu/Linux is a success on the server side, especially web servers. Just cause you have seen some other operating systems, doesn't mean that GNU/Linux isn't doing good.


4. As far as I remember the acceptance of normal folk, will promote this os. I also happen to remember that on the Linux Server (which is an offspring of Unix after all) you don't need a GUI...isn't it?
I don't know where you are heading with this, but as Linus Torwalds himself said about Linux in the business world. "Thats nice, but it doesn't concern me". We aren't fighting about peoples desktops with Microsoft, Linux isn't even on the map. If you want a free Windows to play your games, pirate one!


5. How do you want Linux to get accepted by the wide business community and normal user with such issues it displays from quite some time?

Thats nice, but it doesn't concern me.

/// Freddan

[javierrivera]

I have not come here to antagonize with anyone, to make that clear.


Nor did I. I just came here to try to help users.

But I can't hide I do enjoy some level of flaming on the net ;).



1. If everything seem so fine in Linux land why all these serious problems, especially on the hardware compatibility side of it?


Most of the hardware manufacturers, the only ones that can do it, don't bother about linux. They didn't even test their products with it.

You know, where manufacturers are interested in Linux, it works out of the box.



2. If there's a business model behind this distribution how come we see for every release the same issues all over again?


Errrr... I fail to see any connection between business models and issues ;). Windows has lots of issues and is a hell of a business model.

Ubuntu is not yet a successful business model, but Red Hat or Mandriva are. Both have issues, but they must be doing something right to keep clients paying.



3. You say Linux is a success on the server side. Partially, let me tell you. Last time I had a project for a major financial company I've seen Sun Solaris and IPlanet, Weblogic, etc...


Of course, Linux is not a monopoly on the server side. But it powers more than half the web server of the world (check netcraft). It's on more than 60% of the world supercomputers (top500.org).

Only that is a big success for me. Add the routers, the database servers...



4. As far as I remember the acceptance of normal folk, will promote this os. I also happen to remember that on the Linux Server (which is an offspring of Unix after all) you don't need a GUI...isn't it?


No. It's all about what you serve. You need GUIs sometimes.



5. How do you want Linux to get accepted by the wide business community and normal user with such issues it displays from quite some time?


I don't expect Linux to get accepted by any business experimenting those issues. Linux grow in the desktop should start in places where it's more capable than windows.



I am trying to tell you and others, that when you want to become important then you must be careful not to dissapoint, simply because people are expecting to deliver on that promise.


Well, them just don't make false promises or start false hype, like all the hardware problems can be solved with a business plan an developer organization. It can't. We've been there. We've been unable to do that.



Last time I remember, criticizing for a good reason it brought reflection and finally some progress, whether is about an os or human being things must be analysed and solved.


Yes. Criticizing is good and necessary. But presenting the old issues again is boring.



On the other hand I don't think you ever can compare Linux with Mac...


Of course I can ;).

Linux is technically wayyyyyyyy superior to Mac OS/X.

Performance wise even windows is better. And both support much more hardware than apple.

For me the only interesting thing in Macs is design.



- To which segment of the market Linux in general wants to get sold and accepted?
1. Corporations?
2. Normal Folk?
3. Education?


Linux is an OS. It doesn't want anything.

If you mean companies selling linux or linux support like Canonical, Red hat, Mandriva, Novell, Oracle... each one has his own segmentation, and usually different products for each market.

If you are asking about Linux as a "comunity"... each one of us has his own secret goals ;).



If there's no focus on a particular market segment how do you want Linux to succeed?


You fail to understand anything. Linux is not a company. It's a free OS.It has no single owner, no single purpose.

Lot's of people own parts of linux code. Each one has his own reasons and goals. Nokia for example, submits code to the kernel to have an independent OS for his embedded devices.

Again, if you talk about the companies that sell linux, most of them have clear targets (specially the ones that succeed, understanding success as earning money).



A proper, orientation toward a certain market segment will also drive the requirements of this os, that's the point I am trying to make here.


You still don't understand what linux is.



1. There will be 2-3 big distributions which will survive.


Old prediction. Probably it's never going to be true.



2. There may be other small ones trying to "make it"...


Of course.



3. If Linux will become "a serious business" and one of the major companies will bring some innovative technologies in this platform, paying hard their developers, naturally they would like to preserve their investment and their lead


Please define "serious business". Red hat has reported 278 millions revenue, and 79 millions in income last year.

Maybe that is not serious to you. But it's well above what I make in a year, and quite serious for me ;).

You know, most of the people that work in Linux are getting paid.

I mean, it's not that you don't have a point with all that "business models" and that. It's that you are more than 10 years later.

And please, remember, linux is not free, it's FREE. There are lot's of companies earning money from OSS. And lot's of successful business models.

Javier.

[Freddan]

You fail to understand anything. Linux is not a company. It's a free OS.It has no single owner, no single purpose.
Linux isn't anything but a kernel that powers a free os. Linux wouldn't be anything without GNU, therefore GNU/Linux is the right term ;-).

Hehe Javier you said...

But I can't hide I do enjoy some level of flaming on the net Wink.
So I just had to. /// Freddan

[javierrivera]

Hehe Javier you said...

But I can't hide I do enjoy some level of flaming on the net Wink.
So I just had to. /// Freddan


XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

+10 Funny :).

Javier.

[Fintan]

silver arow is right in one point. there is room for developement. and the directionn this thread is taking proves the point. No real solutions and blatent banter. Lets just go on and continue keeping this forum one the most prductive and helpfull places in the linux community.
cheers
f

[btrigg]

I think everything that should have been said already has been but, like most people, I just can't seem to leave it alone.

Let me preface this by saying I am basically a Linux n00b. I've been running some form of Windows since v3.1.1 (DOS before that) and have only dabbled in the Linux realm. Kubuntu is my third shot at trying to learn/use/develop Linux and it's going to be my last. Here's why:

I may be a Linux n00b, but I am not "just another end user". I'm good with computers. I have a piece of paper that says so. ;)

I've always dinked with things, trying to learn more and more. I have installed, over the years, several different OSes. My first Linux install was Slackware on an IBM Aptiva in '98. The X on that kind of looked like an old Atari 2600 game. In fact, it wasn't worth it. I gave up. A few years later, I read about KDE, so I thought I'd give that a shot and installed (in the loosest sense of the word) it on top of the Slackware that was just sitting there doing nothing. It worked great...aside from the video looking like it was a special effect from The Ring. So I gave up.

Last year, I thought I'd try Linux again. I looked around at the various distros and found Gentoo to be the one most likely to succeed on my 5 year old Compaq Presario (P III, generic everything). It installed, but not easily. I've blocked out most of the memories, but I do recall it took over 2 days to go from beginning the install to actually having a working system.

And I wasn't just installing Linux. I was installing Win95, Win98, Win2k Pro, and Win XP on other boxes. It may sound like I really love installing OSes, but frankly I hate it. It takes forever and it never works right out of the box. Drivers are invariably missing, devices are detected incorrectly (or not at all), and there is always a bunch of crap that is loaded along with it that needs to be cleared out and then something else depended on the thing you just deleted and the pain never ends until you just say, "This is good enough."

So I was fed up with Gentoo because, while it looked great, I kept having to emerge stuff. So I'd come home, do my daily emerge and then work on my Windows box because at least they emerged stuff for me.

So I thought I'd give this Linux stuff one more try - why not, right? I found Ubuntu, liked what I saw, downloaded the LiveCD, fired it up and....

it worked.

It worked on my old beat-up Compaq that didn't have the latest, greatest equipment. Hell, Win2K was even dying on it. Corrupt profile. That sucks. More OS work for me.

So I installed it. Took a couple hours, but that's nothing new (I went grocery shopping while Win2K was being installed and it wasn't done when I got back). And it still worked. I had this slick OS loaded, pain-free, and everything worked. I could even browse my network. Better yet: I could switch, at will, the gdm. I tried Gnome, didn't care for it, and so I went to KDE. I use Gnome from time-to-time, but it's not really striking my fancy yet. Maybe it will someday.

The point is that Linux is an OS. That alone should speak volumes, but to break it down to a basic level: it runs everything on the box. It's not just running some GUI. It's controlling all the I/O. It's managing memory. It is scheduling and running processes; communicating with the processor and all the other chips that take input and provide output. It makes sure that every single bit that gets flipped gets flipped correctly and handles things (as best it can) when they don't.

In short, it provides you with a computer that you can actually use.

I had problems upgrading to Edgy too. It told me that it failed twice during the install. So what?

I paid $0 for it.

And...it still works.

I am a happy, Edgy, Kubuntu user.

PS - Thank you to everyone who develops this stuff. I've tried coding a simple proxy server. System programming is convoluted and dangerous at best. Nice job. Keep up the good work.

[Bongo5HH]

Kubuntu is free.

Thank you to the Kubuntu team. You have not done your work for my thanks I'm sure - because if you had you likely would have contacted me for said "thanks".

Kubuntu is still a "product" which is being positioned to hold an amount of market share. The price it is offered for is meaningless.

It would hold more market share if it were easier for new users to get just a few things working.

The fact that some users are happy with it is wonderful. I actually am glad it meets your needs. I am in fact very happy with Kubuntu myself (or I wouldnt' be using it) BUT there are things that keep me from suggesting it to people. In fact I wouldnt' "suggest" Linux to anyone I know personally.

If even at the great price of "Free" I can't feel comfortable recomending a product to people there is an issue - a glarring one. Either I'm an idiot, or the OS isn't ready.

Actually, if you look at the OS and related Open Source software, Linux has saved me a great deal of money. But it has cost me much more time than that money was ever worth. I'm "in" now... so I'm staying. But having my time back I it probably would have been wiser to just stay with Windows and buy the software I needed for another year or two.

[TheDarkSavant]

Amusing. Truly amusing.

The only REALL problem I'm having with Kubuntu/Linux is that I keep installing something stupid, like a new theme from KDE-LOOK, and suddenly Kicker doesn't work. I find out I didn't have KBFX installed, and that caused the theme instalation major problems. Almost all the problems I had were my fault.

Kubuntu is the first distro/OS that auto-detected ALL my hardware correctly from the start. Not even Windows could do that. The problem I had with hardware was installing the graphics driver, because the GUI messed it up, but simply editing the xorg.conf file made all the difference.

Another issue is that a lot of computer illiterate people are starting to use Linux because we brag it's "Ease of use." Face it, Linux is easy to use, but you need to understand it's terminology. My dad didn't know what an X Server was, so when he tried out Debian, he told it to install a desktop environment, but he didn't want to make his computer a server, so he told it not to install the "Sound Server," the "X server," and any other "Server." This resulted in an entirely well made and sleek CLI based opperating system, instead of an entirely well made and sleek GUI based opperating system. When I told him what he did wrong, he didn't think I could be right about what I meant by servers was different from the Windows form of the word, meaning a computer that holds information for a network.


Just want to throw my experience in. I upgraded to Edgy on four computers. On two of them it went really badly and I basically had to reinstall. Being a Linux veteran, I've adopted practices that make reinstalls not so painful, but still, I would rather have avoided it.

On the other hand, Dapper and Edgy have the easiest wireless setup I've seen in ALL operating systems. My wife's XP box has wireless issues all the time, but my Edgy laptop just connects.

Also, Edgy is the first Linux distro I've gotten to connect to my work PPTP VPN. And I did it through a nice gui interface, so no chap scripts or pptpd scripts :)

My experience with configuring Kubuntu is the same or better than my experience configuring windows. And the Kubuntu wiki is much much more helpful than help I've gotten from Microsoft.

Just wanted to add my Linux experiences, since most posts tend to be negative.

[padre999]

???

I don't get all this fuss.

I installed Edgy on three computers now (fresh installs, no updates) without any problems what so ever. I find it very stable and mature. I expected much worse after all the "bleeding edge" talk.

I know about the limitations that come with Linux, i.e. wireless support etc, but I learned to live with them very comfortably.

So, Kudos to everybody who contributed to this release. I think they did a great job and the hype exists for a reason.

The community is fantastic and I ended up using Kubuntu after lots of other distros before. I can say that the few times I go back to the Windows desktop I miss a lot of the neat features I find in Linux, and I find the MS OS rather tedious and patchy.

One thing that you should consider before starting such a thread is for how long you lived with Windows before, how much you are used to the way it works, and how much you measure other Desktops by what Windows teached you to be the right way.
It is not just a matter of putting another OS on your computer and expect it to do the same thing. It requires to learn a new way of working and thinking.

Just imagine you never used Windows before. Would working in the registry or having to update every single application, defragging, installing drivers, tweaking the system, entering registration keys, rebooting after every little change, etc make a lot of sense for you? It would also be quite hard to find your way and would require a lot of learning.
It probably took you years to master your Windows Desktop. Why should it be different now?

Don't use Windows as the reference model of computing, just see it as one way to do it.

[btrigg]

I have a prime example of the basic difference between Windows and Linux that happened just a few minutes ago. (Sorry. This horse may be dead, but I like beating it because I am STOKED about learning this stuff.)

On my Win XP Pro x64 box, I have had the "updates are available" icon sitting there for a while now. There are two updates ready to be installed. Have been for weeks.

I'm religious about applying updates, so when it first popped up, I told it to install and then bug me every 5 minutes until I rebooted. The updates failed. No reason. No way to figure out how to get them to succeed. Just a cute message saying something like: "Initializing update...........failed!" (I LOVE the bang).

Tried different things to get the updates to install. No luck. Never had this problem before and Microsoft's "help" isn't.

Fast forward to today. I switch over to Kubuntu and see I have an update for lighttpd. So I tell it to install. It fails. So I try it again and have it show the details. Turns out the config is wrong. So I sudo nano the config and it looks fine. Try to start it manually and it tells me that something is listening on port 80 (apache, I found) and that's why it failed.

So I change the port to 81 in the conf file (all I had to do was uncomment it -- nice), save it, start it, and it's up and running.

Feeling my power (it's ok...you can laugh), I decided to update via command line using aptitude.

It worked.

I can't do any of that in Windows; at least not as easily.

So now my Kubuntu machine is fully updated (with a new version of the OS) while my Windows box has a potential security hole.

Was this something I should have had to do? Probably not. But I'm the idiot who installed apache and caused the conflict in the first place. I'm also the one who fixed it and that alone gives me a great sense of empowerment and pride.

Yay me. 8)

[K0LO]

OK, I can't resist jumping in here either. Both Windows and Linux require you to dig deeper beneath the surface if you want to be an effective troubleshooter. I am usually amazed at the otherwise very competent Linux users who have invested years becoming proficient and then they complain when something doesn't work right away in Windows. If they had invested one-tenth of the effort in learning to fix Windows that they have invested in Linux then they would be competent in both operating systems.

In this thread we are seeing the other side of the coin. People who are used to things "just working" in Windows are reluctant to struggle and learn something new. To me, the time that I've invested learning Linux has paid enormous benefits for me. I have learned more about computers and even more about Windows by doing this.

Keep at it; it's worth the struggle.

By the way, the Windows update problem bit me too. I looked up the error code and it was "server overloaded". A few hundred thousand people trying to download the same update at the same time. A few hours later it installed flawlessly.

[shadowfx78]

Bongo5HH in response to your reply to your post pertaining to my post.

I have helped numerous people when i can and if i know how. I learn new things every day on linux and i like that fact. On windows it seemed non-stimulating.

[Freddan]

If they had invested one-tenth of the effort in learning to fix Windows that they have invested in Linux then they would be competent in both operating systems.
Difference is that you have paid for Windows but you haven't for Kubuntu.
If you pay for some sort of software (or hardware) I would expect that it works and works great.

[K0LO]

Difference is that you have paid for Windows but you haven't for Kubuntu.
If you pay for some sort of software (or hardware) I would expect that it works and works great.

Yes; I did and it does. Despite all of the Microsoft bashing that you'll hear on Linux forums, I'm really satisfied with Windows XP. It is the most bullet-proof OS that I've ever used, and I've been around since the CP/M and IBM 360 days. I've had an XP box live on the internet 24/7 for 5 years now. It never quits. It's never been hacked. It's never had a virus. It's uptime, reliability and usability is better than any of my Linux boxes. Don't get me wrong; I love 'em both and you couldn't get me to give up Linux if you tried.

My point was simply that any OS takes skill to operate effectively. They're amazingly complicated creations that are a marvel of complexity and it's a wonder that they work as well as they do. To get the most out of them you can't be superficial. You have to dig down beneath the surface to understand them in enough depth to be competent with them.

Just keep in mind that things that are different are not the same. French is not English and English is not French; they're different. Windows is not Linux and Linux is not Windows. They're different. You need to learn both languages and not complain about the differences. They are different.

[Freddan]

Yes; I did and it does. Despite all of the Microsoft bashing that you'll hear on Linux forums, I'm really satisfied with Windows XP.
Well, I'm not.
If you wander of to the inner workings of XP, it's a mess. Bulletproof?!? you must be kidding with me, you just can't be serious. Only reason XP "works" at all, is mostly cause every hardware manufacture supports it.

[K0LO]

Believe what you want but I am not going to argue with success. I have built many XP installs for friends and family including my wife and my mother, both of whom are very inexperienced computer novices, and they have withstood the test of time with zero problems.

OK, enough. Before you think I'm just a Microsoft shill, let me say that this new release of Kubuntu Edgy is the best performing Linux distribution that I've ever used on my laptop. Battery life is improved over Dapper and getting pretty comparable to Windows (averaging 16 W on Dapper, 14 W on Edgy and 12 W on WinXP Tablet Edition). Hibernation and Standby are a huge improvement. On Dapper it took almost as long to wake from hibernation as it did to cold boot. Now it only takes 30 seconds, and wake from standby only takes 5 seconds. Kubuntu just keeps getting better and better.

[D1SxEyes]

Ok, I'm not a programmer, or a CS student or anything like that, but I do have a "higher-than-average" understanding of these two areas. As far as I can tell, Kubuntu is one of the most polished distros currently available for free. Ok, so it's not perfect. Sometimes it doesn't work for certain things. Essentially though, I think we need to remember the open-source model. A programmer will write a driver for some hardware he has that doesn't work, because he wants it to work. He'll then release that code to the world, in the hope that it helps someone else, but, well, it doesn't really matter to him, because his computer works.

Open source is needs-orientated. If no-one says "hey, could someone please let me know if there are any drivers available for xxx", then no-one will know that xxx needs drivers, and no-one will write xxx drivers. Even the best programmer in the world can't write a driver for a device he doesn't have. So, complaining about something you didn't pay for that doesn't work for something you probably got cheap won't do any good. If you send the developers some money, or even a device, with a request for them to see if they can knock together a working driver for it is more likely to get you your driver.

Kubuntu has grown out of a host of people needing things, and coding them themselves. It's no more than a collection, really. Bitching at the Kubuntu team about releasing software when it's not ready is completely in disagreement with what you were saying. They released it because it'll help some people. If it doesn't work for you, FIX IT YOURSELF, or wait until someone else with the same needs as you, and the desire to hack it into the distro, fixes it for you. This release of Kubuntu works absolutely fine with my computer, which uses mainly generic parts. If it doesn't work on your computer, should the Kubuntu team hold back the release? No, because then I'm not benefitting from all of the changes that have been made since Dapper, and although the Kubuntu team aren't required to provide me with Edgy, because I haven't paid for it, it's kind of the point.

I don't hate Windows. :o
No, really, I don't. Considering how huge a job it is to write an entire OS, Microsoft have built something that works 98% of the time, and that 98% of people know how to use. Ok, so it's bloated, it crashes, and it's proprietary, but it's not bad. I use linux because I like the things it offers that Windows doesn't. It offers better security, it offers fantastic programs like amaroK, and Kontact, for no extra charge. Once you've downloaded the OS, you can get the best programs for it without shelling out more. XP ships with Outlook Express, Kontact has similar functionality to the full version of Outlook, which costs a hell of a lot more.

Sorry for ranting, but people who don't appreciate the level of effort that people dedicate to projects like Kubuntu really annoy me.

D1SxEyes

[podunk]

What do people expect in 6 months? :-) You're downloading a complete OS that was adapted, updated, changed and intergrated in 6 months.

A small team of developers and a group of volunteers can't be reasonably expected to find all the bugs in 6 months for goodness sakes, much less fix and polish them.

Microsoft has something like 5000 coders. They started on Vista the day after they burned the final release of XP, and it's been what - 7 years almost? And it's still buggy?

So to expect a bug free release every 6 months is so unrealistic as to be insane.

It takes 15 or 20 minutes to back up my Kubuntu install. I did a back up and downloaded Edgy to play with.

To many configuration issues for me - it's a great release for the experienced hobbyist, but for a fairly new user with not a lot of time to devote to the install it's not the right mix.

I restored my 6.06 backup in less than 30 minutes.

[lingenfr]

Ya know, it is shocking how many requests for assistance go unanswered on this forum, but yet moronic threads like this one just won't die. If you have time to waste, please click the link in the top right that says "Show posts without replies yet" and see if you can help someone. Once again, to the Kubuntu Team, thanks for what you're doing.

[ROMI]

THANK YOU KUBUNTU TEAM.
I just want to be on record.
Windows has BILLIONS of dollars in support. Kubuntu (et. al) has essentially $0.
It's amazing to me that a product this good, entirely free, even exists.
I would be embarased to be so whiney while contributing NOTHING to something as good as Kubuntu is.
Just my two cents.

Again, THANK YOU KUBUNTU TEAM

[craiglarry]

Regarding installs, before you start a flaming, frigging war like this, if you are dual-booting with winxp(I think prob many are doing that) or some such thingy, do a dskchk on your first system partitions. I've installed from two live cds over winxp on two different computers and it would NOT GO the first time. After I did dkschk, one took 2.5 hours because it found orphan files lurking in the zone where Linux wanted to install, they both installed like friggin champs. Maybe your prob is not with Linux but with good ole winxp defrag Hell! The second didn't show any such serious probs as the first, but still after a full dskchk, it just did it's duty. So try it. Might be better than all this ffflaming guff. I'm generally happy with the first go round of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS from Canoncial. The first five other distos I tried wouldn't even go online.



I think the poster above raises the valid point, we do brag about it's 'Ease of Use' and that's just it, Linux is easy to use just like XP is easy to use and GEM was easy to use, but nowhere do we say Linux is easy to install.

To the trained person any operating system is easy to install, to the untrained person in the street any operating system would be a nightmare the first time they installed it. I've installed many operating systems over the years, from CP/M, DOS, OS2/Warp (and if you think Linux is hard just try OS2/Warp), GEM, Windows (all versions including servers) and of course Linux in various flavours.

All the above required some learning time, some more than others but that is what life is all about learning new things.

So far Mandriva 2006/2007 and Kubuntu 6.06/6.10 are by far the easiest to install by a long way. There are problems with the distro, just like there are problems with XP (and now Vista), but we as humans have the knowledge to overcome these problems and get a working system.

If anyone had said to me in my teens that 45 years later I would be using a computer to talk to anyone in the world in real time, play music from bits of round plastic, play games that look almost like the real world and write silly bits of text like this, I would have thought either they were drunk, daft, or from another planet.

So lets just enjoy the fruits of the labours of the multitude of programmers and others and thank them wholeheartedly for their sterling work, and if you don't like what they do then get off your backside learn to program and put it right as you see the world.

My thanks to everyone who contributed to Madriva and Kubuntu, regards, P.

[hugortega]

I agree with many people in say THANK YOU to people behind, inside and front of Kubuntu :-) ...

I don't care if Kubuntu is better or not than Windows (for me, it's fairly best, but it's just my opinion as a tech guy)... but, the thing that I love of (K)ubuntu is the idea of a *community* world with amazing results... in these days, in which the world is not a friendly place for million of people, this kind of projects are just fantastic...

People who don't understand that we can not demand nothing to someone who is given us a gift... well... you know...

thanks again :-)

ps sorry for my english

[Nakrull]

to say this: Ubuntu - people live with people, people need people, people affect people, People feel people
in other more magical way GAIA
Ubuntu connects us all the K before for me

my Kubuntu booted and installed just fine
athlon64 3200+ a8n-sli se dual pci-E 320gb sata 2gb mem LCD 17 (the most generic of all LCD i could find no to spend to much)
except for my geforce6800xt (40 min approx)
but that's n hard nut to knack
nvidia-glx n editing the xorg worked perfectly after about n 20min the same time win takes to COPY his stuff from the CD and setting up the hdds no to mention the driver n software search afterwards OK i have everything i need backed up up but it still takes time

that took the developers some real time of their lives if not even the so called mighty MS cant do it
no network problems 3 cpus 2win 1kubu n hub and adsl router i can even access the routers menu from konkeror with win had to download plug-ins n stuff
in resume i took me about 3 hour to figure linux out
I'm a real newbie downloaded the CD ISO of kubuntu 2007/01/02 had 10 years of ms **** started my PC experience with win95 in school I'm 22

criticism is good silwersparow (just kidding his not) but u must be an complete dork not to get it to work if u work in such an big software consulting company, buy yourself and usb that is supported with linux
besides I'm happy not to buy bugs in my OS if i have them at least they are FREE

something to add to V.I.S.T.A (virus infected spyware n troyans addwared) (sorry to change it but cant remember the original version ;D) MS works whit big sam and as u know has a "really great" new law that in other word legalize Sam to put spyware in ur pcs to contoll the people who us it
kinda x-files but in pc land it very possible n also easy :o

so i say
hail Kubuntu long live linux
chears nakrull